Thursday Open Thread

18 Responses to Thursday Open Thread

1. Carol says:

   August 28, 2008 at 8:07 am

   Would it be offensive to buy some of those multicultural crayons for my daughters preschool, so they have people colors to pick from?
2. Lyonside says:

   August 28, 2008 at 10:48 am

   I don’t think they’d be offensive – I mean, the colors aren’t labeled “African-descent brown” or “Northern European peach,” right? And from what I’ve seen in stores, a lot of those colors could be used for other things as well.

   If other parents or the teachers are offended by the idea that people come in different shades and could be colored accordingly, then they have issues, not you.
3. Lyonside says:

   August 28, 2008 at 12:10 pm

   What’s on my mind is how to respond more effectively to a white male straight college-educated middle class coworker when he claims that if you have enough initiative, ANYONE in the US can get ahead, be financially savvy, etc.

   I tried the, “not if you can’t get the loan. Not if noone in your family or circle knows anything about investing. Not if you’re too busy dealing with other crises and issues. Not if you’re responsible for all the child care.” and so on… and got the, “yeah, yeah, but still…” response. After repeated dismissals, rather than explicitly use racial or gender examples, I found myself telling him, “Your biases are showing. Your privilege is showing.” And walking out. He grinned – I really doubt he got anything I was hinting at. It’s just not a part of his world.

   But the rest of the crowd was 1 white woman and 1 white man, both of similar circumstances to Mr. American Dream over there. And I’m still 1 of only 4 racial minorities in my office of 40+ people, (1 of 2 racial minority women, and the 2 minority men are very recent hires). And I don’t want to be the “Race” person all the damn time.

   I should have said more. But I’m not sure how to do that when I’m not sure of my audience.
4. Calimom+3 says:

   August 28, 2008 at 12:48 pm

   I have had at least 1 child in school for 8 years…and EVERY year of elementary school I have gifted several boxes of the crayons..and for the past few years I have also donated the markers and modeling clay. And not just because of my child (brown or black – which to use?)…don’t white parents get annoyed that their child either uses white or orange and Asian is yellow…. )
5. Psychobabbler says:

   August 28, 2008 at 1:37 pm

   Here’s what I’m thinking about – how incredibly powerful it is, that on the 45th anniversary of MLK’s “I Have a Dream” speech, Barack Obama will officially accept the Democratic Party’s nomination as candidate for President. It gives me chills.
6. deesha says:

   August 28, 2008 at 6:15 pm

   We’ve discussed spanking here, so I thought I’d post this:

   A fellow mama-writer is working on an article for a national parenting magazine, and she’s (still!) looking to interview parents who meet all of the following criteria:

   1) spank their kids
   2) disagree about this method of discipline
   3) are willing to take part in a photo shoot for the article in NYC
   4) live in the NY-NJ-CT area, or could conveniently travel into NYC for the aforementioned photo shoot

   If this is you, please contact Jacqueline at j.m.burt@att.net

   Thanks!
   ~Deesha
7. frida says:

   August 28, 2008 at 6:50 pm

   @ lyonside:
   i have no magic bullet for you but want you to know i am familiar with the situation you’re describing and i feel your frustration. that specific argument about the “bootstrap” theory/american dream vs the reality of privilege and the rarity of the oppressed getting ahead, is so difficult to get thru to folks who don’t get it. the thing i try to keep in mind is the bystanders may hear our argument even if the “perpetrator” doesn’t.

   i am fully committed to naming bias, privilege, racism and sexism when i see them. a large part of that commitment is so that other people who witness statements that are offensive (even if only to me), hear the counterpoint and maybe un-learn a little something.

   glad to know you’re out there putting little dents in the armor of racism as well. sorry you have to do it representing people of color. i do it from my privileged place of choice as a european american. i find it even more exhausting to speak up against sexism – and wish more men would start speaking to sexism as i (a white woman) speak to racism.
8. Jennifer says:

   August 28, 2008 at 7:03 pm

   Lyonside,
   I feel you on this one. It may not be possible for you to reach “Mr American Dream.” But you might be able to reach your silent co-workers.

   I often find myself in a similar position to the one you described, in terms of being one of “the only ones.” And I am often asked to speak on behalf of non-white people or to be the voice talking about affirmative action.

   I suppose the first question I would have for you is, is Mr. American Dream really receptive or is he just wanting to push your buttons. In other words, is it possible to have a “real” conversation with him? In which case, if there were a time when you were 1:1 together, you could say candidly to him, a version of the following:

   “You know, I hear you say that you believe that all you need is initiative and drive in this country to succeed, but that hasn’t been my experience nor the experience of others I know, and I often feel when I try to bring up counter examples or instances when the “American dream” doesn’t work for some people that you dismiss me. Why don’t you value the first hand experiences that I, and others, have that runs counter to the beliefs you are expressing that there is an equal playing field? When you dismiss my experiences and opinions it actually reinforces my belief that initiaive is NOT all you need, because I have tried to initiate dialogue with you on this topic countless times but I feel you don’t want to listen to my point of view, and I just want to know why?”

   I’ve used this tactic before, but honestly only with someone I thought I could either reach and/or someone I had just grown so fed up with that I figured I had nothing left to lose. I’ve been surprised on occassion by people’s responses (embarassment, apologetic, really making a good faith effort to try to hear my pov even if, at the end of the day, I still don’t think they quite “get it” from my pespective, but I at least appreciate that they’ve tried). I’ve also received lot of defensive posturing and people who’ve gone on the attack with me. At which point, I know that they aren’t interested in dialogue and discussion–they are interested in being RIGHT. And lets face it, for some straight white middle class men, being right is such a natural default mode that any challenge to their world view makes them feel like they are being personally attacked.

   I’ve also literally handed people copies of Peggy McIntosh’s “Unpacking the invisible knapsack of white privilege.” And as in the above, I’ve gotten responses that range from thoughtful dialogue to defensive anger.

   Then again, I’m a university professor, so handing someone an article isn’t seen as being out of place or bizarre–and people who know me know I’m direct as hell and so I’m comfortable just laying it all out–but I also understand that sometimes it’s not possible to do this. And again, while Mr. AMerican Dream may not be responsive, perhaps your other white co-workers will have something jogged in them that could help them be anti-racist allies in the future.
9. Jennifer says:

   August 28, 2008 at 7:06 pm

   Like commenter #5, what is on my mind is what is going on in Denver’s Inesco field and what the next few months have in store for us and how much symbolic impact Barack Obama’s candidacy will have on the children in this country (and around the world).

   What will politics look like after 2008? Regardless of what happens in November, are we seeing a major sea change in politics? Will this be inspriration for the next generation? Are we truly making progress or is this going to be an anomalous blip in the downward spiral of an American empire?
10. CJsDaddy says:

    August 29, 2008 at 12:09 pm

    I guess I’m a day late, but I really really relate to Lyonside’s concern.

    On one hand, the dude has a point, and people who struggle should not be discouraged – because in America people can achieve in spite of the challenges placed in front of them, whether they are class, gender, race, or disability related.

    However, I doubt he has ever actually gotten to know many people that do exactly what he’s suggesting and still struggle. Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is a great concept. I attribute my own success in live to this kind of effort. Even though I started off poor, I given given an extra prop up by my WASP priveledge while pulling on those bootstraps.

    It took me a while to realize that and I still can’t cite explicit evidence or examples where that happened. But given the lack of diversity at the college I attended and my place of employment, I’d say it’s pretty obvious.
11. Rosalia says:

    August 29, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    I just wanted to say that the Department of Education does not care about minority teachers. The goverment has the data proving that African- Americans and Hispanics minority teachers are taking their certification exams and failing everytime. Yet, for the last 5 years they failed to do anything to improve the passing rate for minorities specially in Massachusetts.
12. Maree B. says:

    August 30, 2008 at 10:09 am

    About the multicultural crayons/markers…

    Do send them to your child’s preschool. It is so very important for children and educators to not only recognize the many shades of humanity but to celebrate these color differences. Children of colors need to see media representations of others who look like them and childrens’ artwork is definitely a form of media in schools.

    In response to Lyonside…
    I can hear your frustration. As a white mother of Black and Biracial children I have had to examine, very closely, the ways in which white priviledge colors the viewpoint of those of us who benefit from its insidious nature. I have been reading a great book entitled, Disrupting White Supremacy From Within. It contains a series of essays written by theologians and scholoars addressing the very issue you wrote about. The coworker you spoke about will probably not be convinced by you or anyone else, at this time, to examine his own priviledge as a white man. He sounds way too comfortably wrapped up in it. I really do believe that dismantling white priviledge is something that must be taken on by white people who benefit from and, therefore, perpetuate it. I don’t know how to make that happen without a person or prsons willing to put it out there and confront it openly and honestly.

    I think your response, “Your privilege is showing” is very appropriate, whether he “gets it” or not. A smug look or a smirk or smile is often a face saving mechanism for those who don’t know how to respond to confrontation. I would continue to express my feelings, in response to his biased remarks, and would certainly let him know that I find his racist comments and viewpoints offensive and hurtful.
13. TinyD says:

    August 30, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Lyonside-

    I have to say you have a very strong point. Many people who come from a higher income level or have a support system in place have it a lot easier. The Rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

    If “Mr American Dream” is from a classic middle class American Family than he has that head start in the job feild. He should not deny he has a head start nor should he insult you by assuming that he started at the same point that perhaps you did.

    As a Young white canadian who comes from a middle class family myself, I understand the advantage I was given simply having a family who was able to help me out a little. I ended up paying 80% of my college Tuition myself, but that 20% sure was more than some people get.

    I wish more people would open their eyes to reality.

    Don’t get me wrong. I fully believe that those who work hard can get ahead, but not for a moment do I believe “EVERYONE” starts off on an equil playing feild. That would be an idealistic world.
14. Andrea says:

    August 31, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    I would find a co-worker who handed me such an article or smugly said “Your privilege is showing” pretty darned obnoxious. If the occasion comes up again, it’s appropriate to say, “Some people don’t start out with a level paying field. It’s probably tougher for somone who had a lot of student loans or parents who didn’t go to college, etc. etc. etc.” Otherwise, leave it alone. The “privilege” comment is bound to get his back up and completely turn him off. Not everyone thinks the same way.
15. Lyonside says:

    September 2, 2008 at 6:28 am

    Andrea: I think you’re confusing the conversation I related and other people’s suggestions.

    >I would find a co-worker who handed me such an article or smugly said “Your privilege is showing” pretty darned obnoxious.

    I didn’t do the former. I said the latter, but I wasn’t smug, I was annoyed/upset and not hiding it. I found the coworker’s attitude obnoxious. Smarmy, even.

    >If the occasion comes up again, it’s appropriate to say, “Some people don’t start out with a level paying field. It’s probably tougher for somone who had a lot of student loans or parents who didn’t go to college, etc. etc. etc.” Otherwise, leave it alone.

    That’s where I STARTED the conversation. I ended up commenting on privilege without a huge discussion because it would have gotten into race and class and not only effectively derailed the rest of the conversation that had nothing to do with it, but would have made me the sole person with the race and class “issues” in the room. In a small office with no allies, I’m not willing to fall into the “chip on the shoulder” meme any more than I already do.

    >Not everyone thinks the same way.

    Which is why I bothered to open my mouth in the first place. Sheesh…

    ————

    Thanks to everyone who responded to my venting. Funny thing – the coworker later came up to me and said he was just messing with me, and wanted to make sure we were OK.

    I’m not surprised at the devil’s advocate approach from this particular person, if that’s true and wasn’t a face-saver. But I’m a bit disappointed (but not surprised) that the other coworkers were going, “yeah, yeah, ooh, sammich!” to what Mr. A.D. was saying.

    The fact you can play Devils Advocate and assume everyone but your target will go along with it without blinking… just might be another example of privilege.

    Either way, I’m not a happy camper.
16. Angela Riccio says:

    September 2, 2008 at 4:31 pm

    As a white mother of a biracial son (and a white daughter, currently married to a white man), I know it is difficult for many white people to see their own privileges. It’s not because they are deliberately ignoring these privileges, but so few are ever exposed to the “other” side of existence for people of color.

    It’s not something I could even begin to appreciate until I had my son and began experiencing life very, very differently.

    White male privilege, particularly, is it’s own Affirmative Action. It has been around for a very long time and although it has no government sponsored legislation it has been called by so many other names – nepotism, cronyism, “legacy” admissions, the “good ol’ boy” network, etc. It’s when employers are more willing to hire a white felon than a black man with no record because of the racial fears that pollute their choices. It’s when white employers view some black college graduates as undeserving of that education and subsequent job success because they might have been aided by Affirmative Action, even though they do not view white “legacy” graduates with similar
    suspicion. And so on and so forth.

    It’s when urban black youth, despite graduating high school and going onto college, often come out of college with barely more than an 8th-grade “white” equivalent education (and I know this from my own time spent at a predominantly black city college). How can one compete, despite having the same drive, desire and intelligence as ones white counterparts but in these instances is already behind the 8-ball?

    If it were only a level playing field! Now, it is certainly better then it once was, but we still have much room for improvement!

    AR
17. Angela Riccio says:

    September 2, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    ooops … edit to my above post … I meant to say when graduating high school with 8th grade equivalent education …

    ar
18. arteptige says:

    December 17, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    Greetings I’m new here
    And it looks like a great forum, so just wanted to say hello! :):)
    And looking forward to participating.
    Going on vacation for a few days, so i’ll be back