Having References
By Anti-Racist Parent columnist Liza Talusan, crossposted from To Loosen the Mind
This post is about “references”. No, not job references or character references — rather, the ability to be able to reference some thing, some one, or some concept that, essentially, will make sense to a 5-year old.
Not too long ago, I wrote about how I was watching the Republican National Convention with my 5-year old daughter. While watching it, we saw the McCain photo slides of men with dark skin, turbans, and machine guns juxtaposed with images of the American flag. My 5-year old said, “Mommy? Daddy? Do those people want to kill America? They look just like Nura’s family. Does Nura’s family want to kill America?”
Nura is her friend. Her fam
ily is Muslim. They were the first Muslim family we met and who we grew very close to over the years. When my daughter first met them, she asked them why they wore long sleeves, “scarfs on their heads”, and long pants while she was dressed in a High School Musical tank top, shorts and hot pink Crocs on a 90 degree weather day. In a single conversation, Nura’s mom told my daughter about their choices, their religion, their beliefs. But, through their relationship over the years, my daughter learned so much more. She learned that they loved one another, that they were a family with a great sense of humor, and that they gave big hugs.
The last time we saw them was during a weekend in September, and Nura’s mom explained why the girls were not going to be joining us for dinner. When my daughter asked why Nura’s dad and brothers were always gone, the mom explained the importance of prayer during Ramadan. Growing up a Catholic and being married into a Christian family, the first time I had ever heard about Ramadan was when I was 21 years old — I read about it in a book. My daughter was learning about Ramadan, at age 5, from a family.
Back to the RNC: Hearing the words come out of my daughter’s mouth brought painful tears to my eyes. I couldn’t believe that my 5-year old was getting the message that people who looked like Nura’s family wanted to “kill America”. I was thankful that, at that important learning moment, I could help her work through what that meant. I asked her questions about her favorite memories of the Nura and what she misses about Nura’s family. She told me about their fun adventures at the park this summer, the way Nura’s Mama hugs her tight when she sees her, and the funny stories they made up in September. She also brought up that they “wear warm clothes when it’s hot.”
“Do you think Nura’s family wants to kill America?” I asked.
“No, Mommy. But, then why do those people want to kill America?” my 5-year old asked.
“I am not sure. But, I know that just because some one looks like those people doesn’t mean they want to kill America.”
She seemed to get it, so I wasn’t going to push much further than that. For her kindergarten mind, I felt that referencing Nura’s family had laid the groundwork for at least challenging the photos she saw and the feelings she connected with it. I was thankful to have been able to refer to her friends at that important moment.
Today, on the way home from school, a similar situation came up again where I was thankful we had a reference. Then, I found myself wrestling with my desire to reference another.
Already in the car on the way to see her cousin, my 5-year old asked if we could turn back to our house to pick up a “boy Pretty Pony.”
“Why? Why do you need to get a BOY Pretty Pony?” I asked curiously.
“Because, mommy! We want to pretend the ponies are getting married! And, we need a boy pony and a girl pony!”
Already more than 1/2 way there, I said, “I’m not driving all the way home just so you can pick up a BOY pony… pause... And, also, you can always pretend that two girls are getting married. We DO live in Massachusetts!”
“Ewww!! That’s gross!!!! Two girls can’t get married! That’s soooo weeeeiirdddd…!!”
*** ouch, my socially just heart started to break ***
“Actually, honey, two girls can get married. And, two boys can get married. Remember Ryan’s moms? They are married. They are a family. They love each other.”
“Okay, fine. Two girls can get married. But, boys can’t marry each other! That’s gross, Mom!!”
I knew she needed me to refer to someone she knew. So, I quickly searched my brain for an example.
“Well, what about….. what about…. I mean…. isn’t there….. wait? Do we know any families that have two dads?” I desperately searched and searched.
“No,” she responded.
“Well, have I read you any books that have two dads?” I said in disbelief.
“Nope.”
I asked the question already knowing the answer, “Are there any kid shows that you watch that have two dads?”
“Nope.”
A reference? Do I even have one??? I mean, I have male friends from college who are married, but she doesn’t know any of them. A few years after we graduated from college, my husband and I had gay roommates. But, she doesn’t know any of them, either. Urgh!
The sassy 5-year old quickly followed up, “So, uh, Mom? Prove that two dads make a family. Who is a family with two dads that we know?” as if she were testing me and my commitment to diversity and social justice.
“I guess we don’t know any, honey. We should probably figure this one out.”
And, the conversation ended there. I called my husband when we got to my sister’s house. He works in a school with a number of gay families. “Hi, honey. Quick, we need some play dates with families with two dads” I exclaimed in desperation.
Woah. Wait. Hold on Diversity Girl….
Did I just do what I, myself, can’t stand when it comes to issues of race? Is this the same in the race conversation? I’m usually appalled when someone said, “I need to find a Black/Asian/Latino friend”. Was I doing the same thing??
Needless to say, I spent the next few days trying to dismantle my privilege and the analyze why I felt so uncomfortable with a) our lack of gay role models in our family life, and b) my eager reaction to “Quick! Find them!”
I know others wrestle with this same issue, especially with race. So, real quick, here’s what I came up with for myself: The difference, for me, is whether I’m doing it (the “Quick! Honey! Find some friends!” reaction) to check off a list or to make the world/my family/my daughter’s education and experience better for ourselves and our society. I do want to have diverse representation in our family’s lives because it helps to make us better contributors in this world. My daughter’s only reference to Muslims is of a loving, kind, funny, and warm family. Because of her friend’s parents who are both women, she’s growing up knowing that women love each other in many ways, and that 2 moms DO make a family. In a multiracial family, she knows that Blacks, Whites, Asians, and Latinos are smart, dedicated, integral parts of the American definition. From the kids in her school, she knows that some kids are raised by combinations of moms/dads, grandmothers, aunts, and guardians.
References are important. As a parent, it helps me to talk about difficult situations with my 5-year old when I can reference someone she knows. People often ask, “When is it too early to talk about issues of race?” I say, it’s never too early. As parents, we just need to find the ways to talk about it in a manner than makes sense to them. And, for me, being able to refer to people in my daughter’s life has been the most effective and authentic way of doing so.
Post note: After that conversation, we did end up buying a number of books that did feature two-dad families. And, just the other day, my two married friends attended the birth of their child! They sent pictures to us, we sat as a family and went through their online album, and were able to talk about how two men can get married AND be parents!
Liza Talusan is the Director of Intercultural Affairs at a small Catholic college in Massachusetts. She is an active member of Asian Sisters Participating in Reaching Excellence (www.girlsaspire.org) and believes that mentoring is one of the best way to make changes in this world. She serves as an advisor and mentor to students of color as well as to organizations designed to educate and promote cultural competency.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of 
Balanced Melting Pot wrote:
Wow! I feel so far behind in my cultural awareness with my children after reading that. We live in South Florida and unfortunately, while cultural diversity is very apparent, it’s hard to find same-sex references that can demonstrate all the ways that can constitute a family. Having the books is an excellent idea.
Posted 20 Oct 2008 at 3:40 pm ¶
Elena Perez wrote:
I worry about this one a lot. We just moved to Seattle from Sacramento, and while we had a very diverse group of friends in California (in a number of ways) our Northwest friends are, so far pretty uniform. I do end up feeling like saying, “We need to go out and meet some gay, lesbian, poly, Black, trans, Asian, etc. families!”
Posted 20 Oct 2008 at 7:18 pm ¶
Book Dads wrote:
Hello from a two dad family.
Some fascinating things here to think about, thanks. I think we’ve spent the past 5 years chasing references and how they affect choices, like where we choose to live, where we send our son to school and even where we spend our vacations.
Posted 20 Oct 2008 at 7:54 pm ¶
deesha wrote:
Ah, Liza…the diversity calisthenics.
Thanks for this. I agree with you that intent, sincerity, and commitment matter much, as do references when it comes to teaching/raising our children.
I think there is a problem, however, when as adults we rely heavily or exclusively on references (”Some of my best friends are…”), with little or no true commitment to cross-cultural community building, anti-racism, and social justice, with little or no willingness to be self-analytical and self-critical (which should not be confused with feeling a lot of guilt).
I was a member of an e-list on which a woman once posted an invitation to a party at which various vendors would be selling their wares–accessories, jewelry, etc., which presumably would be of interest to the all-female invitees. We were told that in addition to these goodies, food and drink would be served poolside, and diversity would be there.
Well, a friend and I had a ball joking (privately) about how diversity would be there. I mean, what with all the vendor tables, wine, friends, and fun…how could there possibly room for diversity too? Because you know that diversity takes up a lot of room. And I’ve heard that she’s a mean drunk. And she probably would just come for the free food and not buy anything.
What made this especially ridiculous is that the hostess is someone who “doesn’t see difference” and “hates to even use the words ‘black’ and ‘white’ to describe people.” How exactly does one who doesn’t “see” differences “invite” diversity?
Seeing difference, talking about difference, and referencing people who are different from us in some way is not the same thing as discriminating or hating based on differences.
Posted 21 Oct 2008 at 8:58 am ¶
Luis wrote:
Love you Liza! Best family ever!
Posted 21 Oct 2008 at 2:08 pm ¶
somebody'smama wrote:
There is something in this post I cant quite shake. Liza, you lay out some helpful thoughts about how we parent and I am not trying to belittle that. However, there is a part of this ‘learning moment’ that I think slipped you by.
I wanna go back to the images your kid saw on the RNC. Your reply to her allowed her to think in a different way about American Muslims (good job) but you actually reinforced her belief about those “other kinds of Muslims”. I don’t know about you, but as a woman of color from an immigrant family, one of the things I am trying to battle is the idea that somehow people who live in the United States are better or more worthy that people who live in the Third World, or the Global South. Yes, by reminding her of her friend, you enabled her to think in a different way about American Muslims. But when she asked you “why do those people want to kill America”, you essentially said, “I dont know” and then deflected her question.
I presume she saw footage of Muslim men, from the Middle East, in the military. I think rather than turning the focus away from them, and towards her friend, you could have refocused back to the image that capticated her in the first place, and worked through that with her. “We don’t know that those men want to kill the United States, it looks to me like they are in the army. We also have a army in this country.” Let alone a conversation with her about how other people in other parts of the world feel angry because the United States does not play fair.
Of course, we would need to have these conversations while easing fears about safety, and while reminding our kids that violence is never the answer, but we can’t allow certain people to stay demonized and just invite them to think of the nice Muslims they know. Think about it in this scenario: Your kid sees a picture of homeless street children in Mexico and says, “oh gross. they are so dirty. why are they so dirty?”. Would your response be “I dont know, but think about our neighbor Mrs. Gomez. She is very clean, isnt she?”
Posted 21 Oct 2008 at 2:54 pm ¶
Liza wrote:
Sorry… long answer to follow! Bear with me!
Hmm… parenting is never easy, and there is certainly not one answer. Though, I don’t think I would have gone the “US Army” route in the conversation. My kid is 5. The only men in uniform she has seen have been police officers and the local college football team. While my husband and I know men and women who are bravely serving our country overseas, my daughter doesn’t. So, to refer to something that she doesn’t even know wouldn’t have made sense in that moment. It would have been another abstract reference in her concrete-geared mind.
I took her lead (which, I encourage parents to do) when she brought up her friend, Nura. She made that connection on her own.
I think that many of us adults struggle with the concept of us vs them (and, unfortunately, our own country still considers people of color to be “them”), that I can’t quite imagine having that conversation yet with my 5-year old. Later? Yes, absolutely. Or, if she brings it up first.
My 5 year old also hasn’t quite been connected to “Americans” vs “Others.” I know the American reference is not part of her construction of thought, and therefore I don’t think she’s connecting American Muslim vs “other Muslim.” While Nura’s mom has used the word Muslim, the focus has never been on the word itself but rather on what it means for Nura’s family. I listened to my daughter in that moment – and the connection she was making was that these dark skinned, turbaned men with guns looked just like Nura’s dad and brothers (sans guns). *I* know that the RNC images were trying to connect Muslims with terrorism. My daughter didn’t. You’ll notice in the story that we didn’t even talk about Muslims, rather we talked about Nura’s family and the way they resembled the men on the television. My own agenda was about Muslims … my daughter’s question was about “people who looked like Nura’s dad and brothers.”
I certainly wouldn’t connect homeless street children in Mexico to Mrs. Gomez. That doesn’t make sense to me. Rather, I would more likely have used that moment to talk about privilege with my 5-year old — privilege of having running water, a warm home to go to at night, clothes that can be washed in a washing machine. I, too, am a child of immigrants who fled a country and dangerous political situation — A country where my dad still tells us stories about growing up without running water nor a plumbing system and having to kill one’s own food. Likely, my own dad was one of those “dirty children”.
I think this is a great example of how challenging it can be to talk about race with our kids (hence, the purpose of ARP). From my own experience, I really encourage folks to follow the lead of children who are inquiring about race. We, adults, have our own agenda. And, while sometimes I want to sit my kids down and bust out loads of theory and social justice lingo, they are kids. Smart kids, of course. But, they are kids. In my family, the conversation is on-going. And, I am sure that someday soon, we’ll get into American politics, war, testimony of peace, detrimental effects of colonization, and other issues near and dear to my heart. But, for now, I’ll take those “teachable moments” in between bath time and coloring.
Posted 21 Oct 2008 at 7:04 pm ¶
Gillian wrote:
Thanks for this post, Lisa, which really made me think. I know how tricky these sorts of situations can be. However, I am not comfortable with this:
“The difference, for me, is whether I’m doing it (the “Quick! Honey! Find some friends!” reaction) to check off a list or to make the world/my family/my daughter’s education and experience better for ourselves and our society.”
Personally, I don’t want to be somebody’s random reference. And I’m sure you don’t either. I am quite happy to serve as a role model/reference for my friends and their children, but they are my friends first and foremost. Likewise, those who serve as references for us are our friends before they’re references.
For sure, I sometimes wish we had more, because it does facilitate leaning moments, and I have made a choice to favour certain reference-able professionals (choosing the Asian dentists over the white ones in the practice, for example, and in fact choosing a multicultural preactice as opposed to an overwhelmingly white one). However, although I wish I had some Black friends, I wouldn’t go out of my way to make get some in my address book. It’s just too weird.
It is, as you say, something to struggle with, and I don’t really know what the answer is apart from to be in social settings that are as diverse as possible.
Posted 21 Oct 2008 at 9:42 pm ¶
CJsDaddy wrote:
@somebody’smama – you make an excellent point – I can’t tell you how important it is to understand global peoples and not just Americans. Every few years, friends of mine originally from Iran go back to visit family for a couple months at a time. They often have a gathering before or after the trip and someone wonders aloud as to why they’d want to visit that awful place since they are Americans now. It’s great that these folks consider them American, particularly given their Muslim faith, but they are still Iranian and that deserves to be respected as well.
The images shown at the RNC were likely those terrorist training videos that seem to show up from time to time. I’m not sure how I would handle it as a reference, but I’d think the connection would be even minimal then if it were another country’s military. You could point out that those are actual terrorists training to hurt innocent people. The fact that they are dressed remotely similar to our Muslim friends says nothing about our friends or Muslims in general. Maybe it would be appropriate to discuss other types of extreme hate movements in history (Inquisition, KKK, Nazis).
I like your other analogy as well, although I would not allow my children to refer to homeless kids as gross. Reminds me of a friend who talked about how Haitians are so lazy – during her mission trip there she noted that so many of them spent the day sitting or lying around all day. My wife asked her how she’d be able to cope living off of barely 600 calories a day.
Anyway – maybe all of that is too heavy for a young child, but it’s ashame your daughter could not watch a political convention without something like that coming up.
Posted 21 Oct 2008 at 10:24 pm ¶
Jae Ran wrote:
Liza, I loved this post. As a Korean American adopted into a white family in the midwest, I grew up without any references – of any diversity at all. Until I was in high school my world was entirely white, heterosexual and middle class. The only “diversity” I knew of for most of my childhood were the “Catholics” who my evangelical parents discouraged us from being friends with.
As an adult and parent, I have made conscious choices to immerse myself and my family as much as possible in environments where it is inevitable that we will become friends with or interact with a wide and diverse group of peoples. So, while I also from time to time have worried that we don’t have a specific “reference” for every checkbox of diversity, at the same time we have had the opportunity to truly live in a community and neighborhood that increases our chances that we’ll naturally (and I emphasize that part) connect.
As someone who has been the “token friend” more times than I care to remember, I think it’s always uncomfortable to feel like you’re courting someone for their diversity. But we can all make choices to immerse ourselves in communities and I find that’s where the most genuine connections are made.
Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 8:40 am ¶
deesha wrote:
**Personally, I don’t want to be somebody’s random reference. And I’m sure you don’t either. I am quite happy to serve as a role model/reference for my friends and their children, but they are my friends first and foremost. Likewise, those who serve as references for us are our friends before they’re references.**
I think it varies from person to person and situation to situation. Personally, I as a black woman wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as the context was one of respect and sincerity, and not tokenism and self-congratulation. Even out of the context of an established friendship. I take this position because of an experience I had as a substitute teacher in a predominantly white, very well-to-do school system, some years ago.
On this particular day, I was told by the classroom teacher that one little girl (7-8 yrs. old) would likely cling to me because her mother had recently abandoned the family. The child preferred mother figures over children her own age, understandably. She hovered around the desk during class, and when we went out to recess, she held my hand and sat next to me on a bench. At one point she asked me, “Why are black people bad?”
I was stunned. First, I made sure that she knew that I was black (she did). Then I asked her if she thought that I was bad. She squeezed my hand and said, “no”; she thought I was nice. I waited for the logic to kick in, but of course it didn’t. So I asked her why she thought black people were bad.
“Because my daddy says so. He says they’re bad because they walk in front of our cars when we’re trying to drive. It’s always the black people.”
I explained that in the world sometimes people acted badly or rudely, and sometimes they acted nice, but that a person’s skin color didn’t have anything at all to do with how they might act. She seemed my relieved and squeezed my hand some more.
If this child had had that conversation with her regular classroom teacher or another adult, I would have had no problem with them referencing me as I had referenced myself. At the time, (if memory serves), I was the only black adult in the building, and I believe there was one black student.
Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 9:36 am ¶
somebody'smama wrote:
I am not gonna turn this into a protacted back and forth, because I don’t think that’s helpful.
I’ll simply say a few points and leave it at that.
1. Of course we take our kids lead. That’s clear. I see an opening for something in what your daughter said for a different conversation. You didn’t see it the same way. That’s fine.
2. Of course you would say the Mrs. Gomez example. That’s my point.
3. My kid is 3. And no, I am not having deep theoretical conversations with him, but he does understand what it means to “not play fair”. It’s as simple as that.
We disagree and that’s okay. I just wanted to contribute to the conversation because often in trying to “deal” with racism with our kids, we end up perpetuating some of the same dynamics we seek to undermine.
Posted 22 Oct 2008 at 4:59 pm ¶
double_mom_fam wrote:
This was perfect timing for me to read this because my wife and I were just having a conversation about how we feel like we are sometimes the “it” family at our son’s daycare. We are the only 2 mom fam in his class. And we have been since he was 15 months old and started going to school there. When we looked at the daycare, we loved the staff and the facility. We spoke openly and frankly about who we are and encouraged the teachers to ask us questions if they had any. And it has been great – our family is recignized and talked about and honored, just as the other types of families in his classroom. HOWEVER, when we go to drop off/pick up our son, sometimes parents make a beeline towards us to tell us how “cool” we are as parents and how polite/smart/nice our son is. We are garteful to hear the comments about our son and, at 33 years old, it is nice to be told that we are “cool parents,” but more often than not, we have no idea who these parents are! We simply know them as Natalie/Lyndsey/Grant’s mom/dad. My wife and I feel like we are being targeted because we are the gay parents at the school. We both WANT to be, and are, involved at our son’s school. If parents want us to be a part of their lives because we are the “gay parents,” I am sort of ok with that, too. No one has been malicious or anything like that. If people have questions, I would rather they ask than make assumptioms. Some of these “targeted relationships” have turned into wonderful friendships, and we also have more naturally evolved friendship with parents as well. Just the other day, though, a parent did say, “Wow! You are a two mom family AND Puerto Rican! What’s that like?” I was caught by surprise by that comment because most people do not even notice that we are PR because we “look white” and being gay seems more obvious to folks. I did not really respond to the question because I did not know what to say… And this was said by a parent we have known for quite some time.
We, as a family, also want our son to know people of different backgrounds than ours’, so we also seek out ways to do that – by reading different books, attending various cultural events, talking about the differences (and similarities) we see amongst our familiy and friends. We try to keep it an open and ongoing discussion in our home. But I do wonder how the interactions that I described will affect him ashe gets older… I wonder if he will notice.
Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 10:04 am ¶
Lxy wrote:
There is great irony in the “Muslims want to kill Amurikans” meme that many flag-wavers in the USA have been taught to regurgitate.
Namely, it is the USA that is murdering Muslims, Arabs, and many other people around the world in its fraudulent War on Terrorism.
In the Iraq War alone, estimates by even Western NGOs suggest that America’s war of liberation has genocided over 1 million Iraqis so far.
This is not to mention the millions more Iraqis who have been maimed, turned into refugees, injured, or imprisoned by the Land of the Free.
Over One Million Iraqi Deaths Caused by US Occupation
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/1-over-one-million-iraqi-deaths-caused-by-us-occupation/
Posted 23 Oct 2008 at 11:57 pm ¶
BeautifulFriendships wrote:
I just want to say I’m right there with Ms. Talusan. Five is probably too young to be examining issues of war and hate beyond the child’s personal experience. Children of this age are usually too egocentric (developmentally speaking) to really comprehend the larger picture anyway. Plus, we may actually be doing harm by introducting children to these BIG problems too early – if we give them the information before they can see a solution, they may feel hopeless and become apathetic, which is definitely not what we want. Social change is about education, but it’s also about providing constructive outlets for making improvements, which is difficult if not impossible when talking about young children.
Posted 26 Oct 2008 at 11:42 am ¶
penni brown wrote:
I had the same reaction as somebody’s mama. On the one hand, I thought the author handled the situation in a really well thought out manner. On the other hand, I was thinking, ‘well shouldn’t she say something about not believing everything you see on tv?’. I think if the images were obviously fantasy, the skittle man touching a stapler and it turning to a pile of skittles, there would have been no second thought about saying, that’s not real, they just want you to buy skittles little one. But, the danger of these other images is that they aren’t obviously fantasy, some people believe them, even if just a little bit, and so, they try to balance it with, ‘Well, not all of them are like that.’
Posted 03 Nov 2008 at 1:39 pm ¶