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Tami Winfrey Harris wrote:

Just caught this article in the new Colorlines. Very good–a good companion, I think, to my “Is it worse…” post:

http://colorlines.com/article.php?ID=478&p=1

Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 7:27 am ¶
Holly wrote:

I coined the concept the “80/20 rule” when dealing with racial reconciliation. As a white woman, I feel it is my calling to make more of an effort towards reconciliation b/c my minority friends are placed with the expectation every day to go above and beyond for the dominant white culture. The 80/20 rule is about me saying, “I am going to listen to you. I am going to hear your story. I am not going to push my agenda, or place an expectation that in order for me to understand you, you have to first understand me. I am going to acknowledge your pain and not make it about me. This is your story that is real and true to you.”

Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 9:55 am ¶
Anonymous wrote:

So, I have been reading this blog for a while and I love it. Already, I have learned how many unexamined prejudices I have and how to combat those in myself and also help my friends and my daughter learn to be anti-racist! So, THANK YOU! Keep it coming, even it makes me uncomfortable.

I have a question for anyone, too…my husband and I work with teens in a church and are planning a trip to do construction and food prep/serving work at a place in a border town in Mexico (2 miles from US border)…but, many of the parents of our teens are unwilling to let their kids go. There is a lot of bad press about how “unstable” Mexico is, unsafe, etc. especially in the border towns. We have examined the safety, we won’t be site-seeing, we’re going to an established outreach house where the people have been working for years, we’re not in down-town, etc. Do you think that the parents of our kids are being prejudiced (maybe unintentionally)? I feel like there has to be some element of American media bias against Mexico/news people just looking for a sensational story, etc. For example, a parent forwarded us a fox news article saying how Pakistan and Mexico are in imminent peril of collapse? What? I really feel that this is completely unfair to the real situation in Mexico, and I read the real report (JSCIS) that they pulled the quote out of, completely out of context, but I’m unsure. How should we respond to these parents? We want to be safe, but at the same time, we don’t want to be perpetuating unfair stereotypes, etc. Aah, we’re at a loss.

FWIW, we’re white, we live in a city with about a 50/50 population black/white and our group of teens reflects that population fairly well. I speak Spanish fluently, so I will be teaching the kids we take Spanish and we’ll be discussing all sides of the immigration debate (considering we’ll be serving many people who are trying to immigrate to the US). Not saying we’ll be doing everything perfectly, but still…I guess I just needed to see if how I feel (about parents being potentially biased) is valid or if we’re truly taking kids somewhere unsafe?

Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 12:56 pm ¶
karen wrote:

So, here’s a “how to discuss this ethically and effectively” problem.

My husband and I are expecting our second child in June; so, we’ve been discussing names. I love discussing names. It’s been a pass-time of mine for years. When you’re pregnant, everyone wants to discuss names with you, which delights me. There’s no doubt that names are racially loaded. Unfortunately, my husband has made a pretty racist statement about names, which is cramping my conversations.

Some background and details.
My husband self-identifies as CBC: Canadian-born Chinese. I am white. Generally, my husband and I have similar taste in names and similar criteria for selecting a name. But my husband adds: “no FOB names” (FOB = Fresh Off the Boat). In Canada, FOB has never been a neutral term. It is widely understood to be denigrating to recent immigrants (especially those from East Asia).

I don’t have a problem with how to handle the conversation my husband. We’ve discussed his “FOB” filter and he knows why it upsets me. But there are plenty of lovely names in the world and I don’t mind accomodating my husband’s whim. Obviously, I want both of us to love the name we choose for our child. If he doesn’t want a name, well, so be it, we’ll cross the name off the list.

I do have trouble discussing his FOB filter publicly because of how I think it reflects on me and on husband. But it comes up all the time. I often feel the need to clarify why “we” have ruled out some perfectly good names that fit our style, including Jeffrey, Peter, Patrick, Kevin, Amy, Cathy, and Jacky.

For public discussion, I could white-wash/rationalise it thusly: Many people very reasonable prefer not to use top-10 or very trendy names. It’s just that the provincial top-10 are white-normative; they are not reflective of his ethnic community. Thus, there is a different set of names that my husband considers overused.

But really, it’s not about overuse. It’s about negative associations – negative associations with the names of Chinese people who have maintained closer linguistic, cultural, and kinship ties with China than he has. I believe my husband is looking down on some other Chinese people.

I’ve even been considering discussing our naming decisions on a public baby-naming blog. (There’s a blog for EVERYthing.) I’m wondering if I can do that without
a) white-washing and putting words in my husband’s mouth, or
b) throwing my husband under the bus, or
c) bringing out ugliness in the blog’s forum, or
d) all of the above.
It’s a little less challenging in face-to-face discussions with friends.

Of course, one “solution” is to keep my husband’s comment to myself, but that seems like a cop-out (avoiding discomfort around racism).

Aside: We’ve already decided that if we have a girl, her name will be Margaret (family name). We’re leaning towards Jonah for a boy but that’s far from settled.

Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 10:27 pm ¶
karen wrote:

There has been a lot of press coverage of Prince Harry’s use of the racial slurs “Paki” and “raghead” against a fellow soldier in the British Army. Prince Harry is the queen’s grandson and third in line to the throne.

Here’s a link. Note that in the UK, “Asian people” typically refers to South Asian people, e.g., Pakistani and Indian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/11/monarchy-race

Fortunately, he has had quite a public dressing-down. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, many people are quick to the “he didn’t mean anything by it” defence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/13/military-prince-harry-race-issues

Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 10:37 pm ¶
karen wrote:

Anonymous (of message #3): Xenophobia at its finest, in my not-so-humble opinion. Also: What else would one expect from FOX?

Clearly, you don’t get to decide for the parents. Some families may decline but I think you should still offer the opportunity for those who want to participate. Hopefully, you work with some articulate youth who will be able to have meaningful and persuasive discussions with their parents.

Posted 15 Jan 2009 at 10:48 pm ¶
PureGracefulTree wrote:

karen, congrats on #2!

It sounds like you’re concerned about whether this public baby-naming blog would be a safe place to bring up a discussion related to race. I would say it’s likely NOT to be one, just based on the fact that most online communities are not, unless explicitly intended (and moderated) to be so. It also seems to me that your discussion is more about racial/ethnic implications than the assonance or beauty of a particular name. So you might be better off fleshing out your thoughts within an Asian community and/or an anti-racist community (like here—it’s an open thread, right?)

I don’t presume to speak for your husband’s motiviations, but as an ABT (American-born Taiwanese) there have been times when I’ve been grateful to have a Western first name; I think it’s one less thing that marks me as “other”. (I also have a Chinese name, which I only use among Chinese speakers.) And I have many Asian-born colleagues who have adopted Western first names to avoid discrimination. Is it possible that your husband’s insistence on a non-FOB name is more a desire to protect your future child from racism that he’s undoubtedly experienced, rather than a sign of his own racism?

I’m not saying that all Asian children growing up in the Americas should have Western first names, but I think there are valid reasons for wanting to. FWIW, my white husband and I gave our daughters Western first names, Chinese middle names, and his (non-Asian) last name. Sometimes I wonder if it’s “enough”.

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 2:54 am ¶
ann wrote:

Anonymous, I don’t think it is prejudice or xenophobia as Karen believes so much as the irrational fear that so many people have of the unknown. When I moved to CA at 19 my mom was terrified that I would die in an earthquake. When we went to China we had people scared of SARS for us (never mind that more people in the US die from the flu every year) and multitudes of people are afraid to fly on an airplane even though the chance of death is 1 in million.

I think educating the parents ahead of time about all aspects of the trip. Where you will be going, how you will get there and who will be there. As you also did with looking into the real article. Also don’t pretend that the bad things don’t exist because then the parents will think that you aren’t paying attention, just put them in perspective.

You won’t account for all the fears but you can do your best to lessen them. And shrug off the completely unreasonable ones

Posted 17 Jan 2009 at 11:36 am ¶
karen wrote:

PureGracefulTree: Thanks for the congratulations and the thoughtful comments. Definitely great food for thought for me.

You really hit the mark with the issue of other-ness. My husband has always downplayed any personal experiences of otherness and also the significance/prevalence of racial inequity in society. But I suppose very little can make one feel more “other” than to discuss one’s experiences of being other.

I used to shake my head in disbelief at his blinders but not press the issue – shrugging my shoulders while telling myself that it’s not my place to challenge his take on his experience of otherness. But, this is something I’d like to explore more with him since will we both be trying to help our children navigate a world in which they, too, are other.

I’m just starting to learn about the concept of model minority. I believe my husband has lived the life of the model minority and has rarely tried to rebell against the role or the people/circumstances/society that impose the role.

As far as the other blog goes, it really is about the name. That’s why I came here to discuss the ethnocultural implications of naming. I was just wondering whether I can or should quote my husband’s word-choice of FOB.

Meanwhile, I’m all ears if anyone has suggestions for the name for a Chinese and white boy, older brother Adam, last name starts with L but the spelling is not clearly Chinese (I know of several Welsh people and European Jews whose names are spelt the same way.)

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 12:31 am ¶
karen wrote:

Ann: Irrational fear of the unknown, is indeed one definition of xenophobia. “Xenophobia is a fear or contempt of that which is foreign or unknown, especially of strangers or foreign people.” (Wikipedia)

Yes, there is some question of whether we’re into territory of fear of foreign PEOPLE but it’s hard for me to believe that the parents’ fear is entirely divorced from ethnic difference, whether or not it is a conscious association. A pretty big coincidence that the destination is a foreign country full of foreign people.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 3:18 pm ¶
PureGracefulTree wrote:

karen, I reread your original post and now I’m a bit confused. You wrote:

[i]I often feel the need to clarify why “we” have ruled out some perfectly good names that fit our style, including Jeffrey, Peter, Patrick, Kevin, Amy, Cathy, and Jacky.[/i]

Are these what you consider FOB names? I thought that by FOB names you meant those that were Chinese-sounding (essentially, romanization of the original Chinese name), but it appears you’re talking about something different. Are names like Jeffrey and Peter commonly adopted by Chinese as soon as they arrive in Canada?

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:01 pm ¶
PureGracefulTree wrote:

I also wanted to comment on the whole “model minority” thing. For many years I completely bought into the stereotype; I was proud of being a model and worked hard to live up to that image. When I moved to California and started teaching physics at UC-Berkeley (which has a huge Asian student population), I met students who dyed their hair pink, who didn’t seem to care a bit about school, and I was mad at them. I saw them as a discredit to my race.
It wasn’t until much later that I understood how even ostensibly “good” stereotypes are harmful, and that each person should have the freedom to live his or her life without being made to speak for an entire community of people with which they have nothing in common besides skin color.

Posted 18 Jan 2009 at 9:06 pm ¶
deesha wrote:

This was a good read:

“Sorting Children into ‘Cannots’ and ‘Cans’ is Just Racism in Disguise”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/18/AR2009011802345.html?referrer=emailarticle

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 2:39 pm ¶
karen wrote:

PureGracefulTree: “Are names like Jeffrey and Peter commonly adopted by Chinese as soon as they arrive in Canada?“
Short answer: No, not commonly any more, but yes, commonly when my husband was young.

Indeed, I was referring to those English names, which my husband considers FOB names. I don`t actually associate many of these with Chinese people because they have long histories in English. Although, I know many under-40 Raymonds who are of Chinese descent and none who are white.

Nearly all Chinese people who went to school with my husband had an English name and a Chinese name. The English was always used at school. Some used the English name at home, some used the Chinese. This was equally true whether the kid was born in China or in Canada. Many adults would adopt an English name, too. If they were a recent immigrant, they would choose an English name upon arrival or use one that had been assigned to them in English class in China.

There were a set of English names that were quite popular for Chinese Canadians, including Jeffrey and Amy. In many, though not all cases, the English name was chosen for pronouncability, and similar sound or meaning to the Chinese name.

The changing demographics of Chinese immigration to Canada make it even more complicated but inform the discussion of adopting an English name, which was partly but not entirely about fitting in to the dominant culture (escaping otherness.) Many of those leaving China and Hong Kong in the 60`s, 70`s, and 80`s had lived under Maoism and had and have negative attitudes towards China. Hence, a quickness to dissociate themselves with many things Chinese. There are also significant differences between Hong Kong Chinese and mainland Chinese and other Chinese. Until 10 or 15 years ago, the vast majority of Chinese immigration came from Hong Kong.

I have seen this change quite quickly as a teacher at a secondary school where the vast majority of students are of Chinese descent. China has changed and the younger generations are quite proud to be Chinese. A good number plan to emigrate back to China. Many, if not most, never adopt an English name. Those who do are not choosing from the list my husband considers FOB. Names come and go with fashion, of course.

FWIW, Chinese-Canadians are a “large“ minority in our city. We live in Toronto, where 11% of residents self-identify as Chinese. For comparison, 13% of US residents are black and 4% are Asian (although 1.6% report multiple races).

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
and
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CD&Code1=3520&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 3:15 pm ¶
Angela Riccio wrote:

As to the trip to Mexico and whether the parents reactions are based on prejudice:

It would be quite unfair to lump all parents who are hesitant to send their children to Mexico as prejudiced, that assumption is in itself a form of prejudice. You do not know each parents misgivings and each parent DESERVES to be judged individually.

As a parent, I would have some initial misgivings about sending my teenage child on a similar mission, not because I fear the “brown people”, but out of legitimate concerns for my child’s safety. To dismiss those concerns because you have different knowledge than the parents is a mistake. COULD some of the reactions be born out of conscious prejudice against Mexican people? Sure it could, but you can’t make that judgment without questioning each parent and discovering his/her own fears.

It may, in fact, be worth talking to each parent in person (or on the phone, but not by email) so you can answer any questions they may, and quell those fears.

It is not irrational for a parent to fear the unknown, and it may not be an actual act of xenophobia. It certainly isn’t irrational to fear sending a child to an area with a crime rate higher than one’s own area.

Knowledge is power, right? Have you outlined what steps you will be taking to keep the children safe? Curfews, chaperones, restrictions on movement outside of specific areas, specific education for the children about Mexican culture, religion, customs and potential dangers and how to avoid them? What to do incase of an emergency? What would you do in the event something of a criminal nature happened to these kids? This could go a long way to overcoming the legitimate fears these parents have.

Perhaps you could invite the people you work with in the town to give a question and answer meeting for the parents, provide them with Justice Dept. crime stats in the area, or ask someone from local law enforcement might provide some background for the parents, etc.

So, perhaps give these parents the benefit of the doubt and do not label them as racist/prejudiced until you have collected all the necessary info on each parent to make such a judgment. I know I would be indignant if I was accused of not letting my child on on this trip because the assumption that my white skin makes my judgments involving anything to do with non-whites ipso facto racist or prejudiced. It would be a false assumption.

AR

Posted 21 Jan 2009 at 9:59 am ¶
Angela Riccio wrote:

correction to above posting – first sentence – change to a town bordering Mexico and not Mexico.

Posted 21 Jan 2009 at 10:00 am ¶
Angela Riccio wrote:

Here are some non-Fox News articles that would provide any parent legitimate concern sending their children to any border town:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/132382

“U.S. State Department issued a travel alert regarding these cities, as well as Juarez, warning that drug traffickers, Mexican police, justice officials, journalists, foreign visitors and residents–in effect, pretty much everyone–have been victims of attacks and homicide.”

And here:
http://www.dawn.com/2008/09/01/int7.htm

“People marched in cities throughout the country, including along the US-Mexico border where increasingly brazen drug gangs are battling each other for control of smuggling routes.”

A government report on border safety: http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf

Here is a 2003 government report, although it may not accurately reflect what is going on now:
http://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2003/swe0303c.html
“Despite this good news about border crime rates and the role of the Border Patrol, a set of second-order effects deserves attention. The overall border crime rate has fallen substantially from its 1990 peak, but the bulk of the improvement has been concentrated, not surprisingly, in the communities targeted for early border enforcement initiatives, namely San Diego and El Paso. Most border counties, albeit much smaller than San Diego and El Paso, did not experience declines as steep as the national drop and thus have become relatively more crime ridden in 2000 compared with the nation.”

I think you have a lot of legitimate, rational fears to overcome.

AR

Posted 21 Jan 2009 at 10:46 am ¶
karen wrote:

Angela,

Thanks for the thorough response about why the parents’ concerns may be legitimate. A few questions:

Do you think it is likely that
- the fears of some parents are rooted in prejudice?
- the some parents have an inkling of that prejudice and are masking it with “legitimate” rationalisations?
- actually, likely MOST 0f the parents are well-informed and also that their fears are legitimate.

If there is a good number of parents with prejudicial fears, is it worth distinguishing between the legitimate fears and the xenophobic fears, so that the prejudice can be named and discussed directly?
Or is it best to be indirect, that is: ignore the likelihood/possibility of prejudice and deal solely with the rational fears, perhaps with the hope to thereby to alleviate prejudicial fears indirectly?

Posted 24 Jan 2009 at 7:39 pm ¶
Angela Riccio wrote:

Karen,

No doubt some fears are potentially rooted in prejudice, and perhaps being masked either consciously or subconsciously by these “legitimate” concerns. But how would one go about accurately discerning such things, particularly if the subject(s) may either be unaware of the root of their concerns or unwilling to confront their known prejudices?

All I think one could do is address the legitimate fears of these parents, providing them with as accurate information as possible and providing answers to their questions in a way that puts their minds at ease (if that is possible) and in a non-judgmental atmosphere.

As to attempting to distinguish between the xenophobic fears and the legitimate fears … that would be a difficult task. How would one accurately determine that, except for those few who willing use racially charged language? It assumes a lot, don’t you think when something as legitimate as a child’s safety in an area where the Justice Dept. says American citizens shouldn’t go to determine whether or not these parents just are afraid of Mexicans?

I’m not sure there is an advantageous way to approach that. All one can do is lead by example and through that example, and over time, conquer those prejudices in those people who are open to such change.

I hope that answers your questions.

I would also ask, if after addressing those issues of safety, et al. a parent still did not want to send their child would he/she be assumed to be racist/prejudiced?

I’ll say this, as a parent, with virtually the same info as “they” have I doubt I could be convinced to send my child on this particular mission and some might assume some sort of xenophobic or other prejudiced motive behind this white mother not sending her son to a Mexican border town. If those judging me had any knowledge about me beyond the color of my skin and this decision they would know nothing could be further from the truth. How many of these parents are like me? (That might be difficult to determine without getting to know each parent better.)

These parents deserve nothing less than the benefit of the doubt and unless otherwise clearly indicated the respect for their decisions.

Angela

Posted 29 Jan 2009 at 8:08 am ¶
Angela Riccio wrote:

I would like to add, as a parent and one who full well knows the needs of the disenfranchised and poor in this country and beyond our borders, I would feel it a dereliction of my parental duties to send my child somewhere that he might be a target for violence (inside or outside our country.)

If upon reaching the age of legal maturity he would decide to go somewhere potentially dangerous I would respect his right to put his life in danger for his firmly held beliefs.

As a parent I cannot knowingly endanger my child even if that means I might be criticized by others.

There must be alternatives to this dilemma. Is there a way these teenagers can help without having to go to the actual town? Could they raise funds, collect goods, or do something else that would develop their sense of charity without risk of bodily harm or worse?

Is there a way to bring some of the people from that town to talk with these children and their parents about their plight and their needs, hopes, dreams and thereby help dispel some of the possible prejudices and/or fears (legitimate or otherwise)?

There is more than one way to get these children and their families involved and helping those in need.

Angela

Posted 29 Jan 2009 at 2:36 pm ¶
karen wrote:

Angela,

I did try to emphasise the option of identifying xenophobic FEARS (as opposed to people). I think I do understand your concerns about people being called out as racists/bigots/xenophobes or feeling called out as such. But I think that there is a danger in being overly-sensitive to those concerns. We risk wading into the territory of: “let’s not discuss (even the possibility of) racism because it will make people feel uncomfortable.”

I would certainly hope that in anonymous’ situation, the discussion could take place in a respectful, loving, and temperate manner without suspicion and assumptions precisely because those involved do know each other or at the least share the common values of their religious community. Moreover, they’ll have access to assistance from a pastor, who is likely well-versed in helping people work through problems. If they can’t have a productive discussion of race, who can?

Posted 29 Jan 2009 at 10:57 pm ¶

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