Open thread

17 Responses to Open thread

1. Good Karma says:

   February 19, 2009 at 6:37 pm

   I have to get something off my chest. I think I am about to be banned from a breastfeeding and parenting forum because I tried to privately tell someone that a comment she made could be found offensive. I will not give her name or handle or say the name of the site (to protect her privacy) but I have to post a summary of the exchange. Please tell me if it was me who was somehow out of line.

   Original comment posted on a general chat page of this parenting forum: “I have horrible hair. Its VERY VERY curly (think African-American hair) and VERY thick and VERY VERY dry.” She went on to say that she got her hair relaxed and was pleased with the results and she posted before and after photos.

   I sent her a private message saying this “I KNOW you didn’t mean this, but when you say you have “horrible hair …think African-American hair” some people might find that a little offensive or at least off-putting. I was kind of taken aback. I know you just meant that you never learned how to properly care for it so it has been difficult for you. But we get a lot of messages that black hair = “bad”.”

   She said “I think you misread my thread. I am allowed to think I have horrible hair. I said I have curly hair (think African-American), because my curly hair is just like African-American hair. I did NOT say African-American hair was horrible.

   Please don’t project what other people have said about African-American hair onto my thread.”

   I don’t want to make this too long, but I clarified that I knew thatshe was not saying that African-American hair was horrible, but I was just asking her to be conscious of her choice of words.

   She flew off the handle at that point. She said that I was getting close to calling her a racist and told me not to “push it”. She said that I would not be telling her this if she was African-American, that I don’t know what her background is and that she doesn’t have to tell me.

   I said that I thought she was biracial based on her photos but that that was beside the point. Everyone needs to be thoughtful about what words they use. I said several times that I did not think she was a racist and that I didn’t that that accidentally hurting someone’s feelings makes you a racist. I apologized for any offense and tried to end the exchange.

   She wrote me back telling me that I was missing her point and that she was reporting me.

   I am so confused. How does telling someone that they have mildly offended ME make ME the bad guy? Was I out of line? I thought that honest dialogue was what we were all going for.

   I should note that she DID edit the original post to say “challenging” instead of “horrible”.

   Well I hope I am banned from this site. This is the third time I have spoken up about racial issues and had a bad response. Please someone tell me what I said that was so outrageous. I know I should not have speculated on her background, but my point was that it wasn’t pertinent.

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3. CJsDaddy says:

   February 19, 2009 at 10:34 pm

   Can anyone tell me if there’s a good anti-racist forum/message board out there? There are a number of great blogs, like this one, but I’m wondering if there’s something in a message board format.
   Thanks in advance.
4. Pollyanna Sunshine says:

   February 20, 2009 at 2:54 am

   Good Karma: nope, that doesn’t seem particularly outrageous to me. It sounds like the same kind of defensiveness discussed on another recent thread, for much the same reason. But the fact that she edited her post suggests that your comment did make her more aware of her language.

   On a totally different topic, I’ve been reading ARP for quite a while now, and it strikes me that most of the posts focus on the concerns of parents of children of color, e.g. how to address racism targeted at the group to which one’s children belong, how to encourage pride in racial identity, etc.

   I’m by no means trying to suggest there’s too much of that perspective, but as a white parent of a white child in a majority white community, I sometimes struggle over how some of these strategies apply to my own efforts at anti-racist parenting. E.g., I’ve often read people encouraging parents to notice/call attention to people’s different skin colors, etc., as a way of affirming the beauty of a whole range of appearances. But it’s hard for me to imagine how to do that in a way that isn’t 1) “Othering” those classmates and neighbors who differ from the pinkish hue of the majority in our community, 2) inculcating a kind of color-consciousness that he currently seems completely devoid of.

   Obviously I know that eventually he will be confronted with racist ideas in the world and I’ll need to intervene whenever that happens, but am I being naive or somehow indulging my own white privilege to want to honor and preserve his apparent “color blindness” as long as that seems to be his reality?

   And, a broader question: what can/should anti-racist parenting look like for those of us trying to raise anti-racist children who happen to be white?
5. Pollyanna Sunshine says:

   February 20, 2009 at 2:55 am

   Oh, BTW, my son is currently 3, so I’m currently thinking about these issues at preschool level although of course I’d like to think ahead as well.
6. jenny says:

   February 20, 2009 at 7:54 am

   Good Karma: My opinion is she thought she only used the descriptor AA hair to refer to curly. That “horrible” = a combination of curly, thick and dry. If she had written it more carefully, I don’t think it would have been offensive.
7. Gillian says:

   February 20, 2009 at 9:28 am

   Pollyanna, I recently attended a talk (by a psychologist) about identity construction. Here is info from one slide that it seems appropriate to share with you:

   Children become aware of racial differences from 3 years old. Between 3 and 7, they start to realise the labels and affective reactions associated with different racial groups. They start to observe and evaluate what it means to be different, to be of another race.

   In families where there is little dialogue on race awareness, the child can believe that it is not right to express either positive or negative feelings about race.

   In my experience, your son will soon be bringing the subject up himself. In the meantime, instead of othering (valid observation), why not try commenting on the beauty of someone who is of a different race, as you might with someone white. That way you will be sending a positive message to your son, without being too race-conscious.

   As for anti-racist parenting, I would say that it differs little depending on whether your child is white or not white except that parents of children of colour also have to deal with slf-esteem and safety issues.
8. Liza says:

   February 20, 2009 at 9:29 am

   @ Good Karma: My response is “good for you!” I think it’s really hard to address comments/situations/language, and the response by the person you were challenging is typically the reason why many don’t step to the plate and voice their opinion. I think the poster’s statement is loaded racially, whether or not she “meant” it to be (impact vs intent, right?). Why didn’t she use a different descriptor? She could have made a different comparison — curly like velcro? curly like wool? curly like “Little Orphan Annie”? While I know some of those terms, too, unfortunately have been used as descriptors in racial ways, they are certainly less charged than actually using a racial identifier. Why did she want to say “Curly (think African American)?”

   I think her change from “horrible” to “challenging” is slightly less offensive, but as I’m guessing she isn’t an AfAm woman, how would she know that “AfAm hair IS challenging?”

   I say KEEP AT IT! Responses like the one you got from that poster are the reasons why so many of us are afraid to challenge a person’s thinking. I think you did the right thing, for what it’s worth!
9. Tami Winfrey Harris says:

   February 20, 2009 at 9:30 am

   Good Karma,

   I don’t think you were off-base. The prevailing belief in our society is that hair that is very curly and very thick and that tends to be dry is “horrible.” Those qualities can often be assigned to black hair. So, if you connect the dots…

   I’ll bet the poster has never stopped to think why she so readily accepts her hair as “horrible” and only acceptable once straightened. The beauty hierarchy that places Eurocentric physicality (straight hair, blond hair, keen features, light skin, etc.) at the top is restrictive to ALL women.

   Pollyanna Sunshine,

   I very much agree with you that we need to hear more about anti-racist parenting for white parents of white children. There are some things you can do to help. Don’t hesitate to tell me what you’d like to see on ARP; just e-mail team@loveisntenough.com. When you are faced with an issue, send it in to “Ask ARP” at the same e-mail. That will allow ARP readers and me to suggest some solutions. Lastly, think about writing a post for us. I am always looking for new contributors.

   Anti-racist parenting is NOT just for the parents of children of color. But I admit, as the black stepmom of a black child, I won’t always understand what your specific challenges are. I need a little bit of help from parents like you.
10. K says:

    February 20, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Pollyanna Sunshine, there is a blog called White Anti-Racist Parent, that I think was started to meet exactly the need you describe. Unfortunately, it’s not very active. http://whiteloveisntenough.blogspot.com/ The site says they are looking for contributors–perhaps we could revive it! I have a little story (conversation) I’d be interested in writing up for something like that.
11. Andrea says:

    February 20, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    Sure, you’re entitled to be mildly offended, if you are, but I think she’s also entitled to think you’re being overly sensitive. Honestly, I wouldn’t have given a second thought to that statement had I read it on a forum. I don’t see anything wrong with the way she phrased it. She’s having a casual conversation with friends on a bulletin board about caring for her hair, which she finds frustrating. She’s calling her OWN hair horrible and then is going on to describe its texture in terms she thinks other people can understand — “think African American.” She does not have to like her hair or curly, coarse hair. Her response to your comment was probably predictable, not that I think anyone ought to be banned from a site for expressing an opinion without personal attacks or profanity. Sites that do ban posters make me tired.
12. Jen says:

    February 20, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Good Karma, good for you! You educated someone, you didn’t back down, and you gave her more credit than she perhaps deserved. She sure sounds racist to me.
13. E.B. says:

    February 20, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Good Karma,

    I think you were absolutely right. That forum doesn’t sound like a very positive place to be since you continue to run into these issues. I would’ve been really offended by that original comment.
14. Good Karma says:

    February 20, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Thank you so much for these responses. I have really been upset by this exchange. So far I have not been banned from the site but I think I will not participate anymore.

    Jenny and Andrea, I think you are correct. I understand that she was only talking about her own hair and I didn’t/don’t think she meant any offense. Heck, I didn’t really take offense until she jumped on me. I don’t really think I was being oversensitive. I didn’t feel personally offended, I just wanted to point out the power of her words. As Liza said, why did she need to use racial shorthand to describe what she meant? And I think Tami had a great point that our narrow beauty standards are oppressive to all women.

    Later in the thread, someone asked how she got “ethnic hair”. She said she didn’t know and described how it popped up in her great grandmother and is gradually fading away. Um, I’m no geneticist but I think her great grandmother probably got “ethnic hair” in the usual way. (I hope this comment is not out of line for this blog. I just don’t understand why we need to deny our history.)

    Aargh. I am still really frustrated. I don’t know why I can’t let it go. I am still just shaking my head. Thank you all so much for hearing me out, letting me vent, and giving me some validation.
15. Pollyanna Sunshine says:

    February 20, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    K–Thanks for that link, but rather than trying to revive a separate site that seems to be mostly dead (albeit with some good archives), I’d love to see such perspectives brought into the wider ARP conversation. Personally, I think putting all these different perspectives into the dialogue can only be to the good. My own thoughts and questions are still pretty ill-defined, but I’ll think more about what I can contribute. In the meantime, I’d love to see your story on ARP or hear more about the session Gillian attended.
16. Anonymous says:

    February 22, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    Working the 12 White Steps is on my mind. http://damaliayo.com/pdfs/12whitestepsWeb.pdf
17. NW mama. says:

    February 25, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    I had a similar experience on an adoption forum.

    I came out of that deciding to distance myself from that group a bit because I couldn’t fathom how defensive and head in the sand folks were about this issue.

    People are so very afraid of being labeled racist that they can’t admit that they had a racist thought or made a racist statement, or even that they said or wrote something that someone else might construe as racist.

    I think you absolutely did the right thing by pointing it out. Whether she ‘meant’ to be racist is immaterial. If you thought that it sounded racist to YOU, then it was, period.

    If we all spoke up like that the world would be a better place.