Open thread

23 Responses to Open thread

1. Thiago Leite says:

   June 18, 2009 at 11:54 am

   I would like to be a journalist.
2. Good Karma says:

   June 18, 2009 at 4:17 pm

   Since yesterday’s hair post, I’m wondering what kind of hair issues I’ll have as a black mom with my daughter, whose dad is white. Luckily she’s only a baby now but already people (black, white, and other) make tons of comments about how “cool” or “gorgeous” her hair is. I know most of these comments are harmless but some have a lot of history and baggage behind them. Also will it seem weird to her that her hair is nothing like either mine or her dad’s? How will I explain to her her that she is beautiful but not for the reasons that some people say? All in all, I think it will be very interesting terrain to navigate.
3. Torey says:

   June 18, 2009 at 6:43 pm

   Good Karma – I have a question along similar lines. However, my son and I are both white so if adding my question to this thread is not appropriate, I can wait for the next one. I don’t want to step in with my white privilege and say “No really, this problem is all about ME and my son,” if that makes sense.

   Anyway, if it *is* OK to join your q, my son also receives a lot of praise for the parts of his appearance that benefit from white privilege. I am really struggling with how to address this as he becomes aware of what people are saying. I want him to know that he is a wonderful person and has beauty, but that when people praise his blue eyes and not someone else’s brown eyes that is not ok…and I want to present these ideas in ways that are developmentally appropriate and begin to create awareness and empathy, not shut him down. Anyone got experience?
4. dersk says:

   June 19, 2009 at 6:53 am

   Wow, thanks for blasting my ears out with a Bacardi ad that’s hidden and automatically plays. That was annoying.

   @Karma: Well, my daughter seems practically not to notice that my wife’s hair is different (my wife isn’t her mom, tho) other than to play with it. On the whole question of beauty, you could always just tell her that different people think different things are beautiful.

   Makes me think of those old Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups (you got chocolate in my peanut butter, you got peanut butter in my chocolate) – actually, not a bad metaphor…
5. A says:

   June 19, 2009 at 3:38 pm

   After almost 10 years of marriage, struggles with infertility, adoption and the recent date of my D&C, I am actually terrified of having a baby with my White husband and I’m AA, and our son is AA. The irony is I feel more inadequate at the prospect of parenting my own biological child who would be biracial than at parenting another adopted child who would be Black or Biracial and won’t have mine and my husband’s genes.

   I am also realizing that I have one White female friend to call upon if I have said future child and am not sure how to blow dry her hair if its not curly or kinky at all, but straight. (My past attempt years ago on a friend’s child’s long straight hair was a mess. I gave up and put it in a bun…I am horrible with straight hair, just awful…although I can cornrow almost decently as I used to cornrow my White friends hair in childhood along with my Black friends’ hair.)

   The White women I speak with frequently or interact with frequently are not my close companions or my friends. I notice this chasm, even if they are antiracist themselves. I notice that their children may be Black or biracial, they may understand the dynamics of race and racism, but they don’t have Black female friends and may not interact with me unless they need advice on their child dealing with racism or their child’s hairstyling options. Outside of that I am not considered a friend.

   (The irony of this is the White friends I have happen to be parents of White children or do not have children yet have been a joy to socialize with.

   I have a standing offer from a White parent who lives in the area where I am moving to, and she isnt even a parent of Black or biracial children…for us to get together and do something fun.

   I appreciate my friendships. And at the same time I am just beginning to realize the weird dynamics of friendships amongst women when it comes to race and being parents.)

   I worry about moving into a predominately White neighborhood because it dawned on me how easy that was to do in childhood, and how easily my Black family has adapted to living in a predominately White neighborhood but having many Black friends and family in their lives.

   But now that I am a wife and mother of a Black son, with a White husband I am concerned about how do you go about setting down roots as a family like ours, in a new state, where we don’t know many people, and I am hoping we see multiracial families like ours that have Black people in it and White people in it as well. My son will be closer to my family and get to see them much more often, after our move, which is a bonus. But I do wonder what it will be like for him to learn as I did, how to navigate predominately White worlds and predominately Black worlds with such a family that is honored to have him as a member.

   I am told that it is normal to have those moments of feeling inadequate as a parent because you cannot reproduce everything you wish your child and your family to experience in life, yourself. I am curious how our lives will be shaped by living in a new state, and all.

   My goal is to appreciate each moment in our new state, appreciate the culture of that city/state, enjoy it, participate in it, get involved in it via volunteering our time. I think thats one way we could approach our move.

   Thanks in advance for reading.
6. A says:

   June 19, 2009 at 3:40 pm

   Good Karma I see nothing wrong with the idea that your child’s hair is beautiful, just as hair of different textures from hers is beautiful.

   I think its awesome for mothers to help their little girls define what they find beautiful about themselves and that definition having more value and substance than any superficial reasons that the outside world may assign as beautiful to a little girl.
7. Janell says:

   June 20, 2009 at 1:57 am

   This is my first time commenting here, although I’ve been enjoying this blog for a few weeks. If anyone has any feedback for me, I would appreciate it so much.

   I am white, and an adoptive mother. My adopted daughter is two years old. Her mother is white, and her father is unknown. We have never had any information about him, and probably never will. Based on her appearance, I suspect that he is black or biracial, but it is not completely obvious, so I could be wrong. I hate that I don’t know, and I hate even more that my daughter may never know.

   What I’m wondering is, does anyone know anything about DNA testing to determine ethnic background? From what I understand, there are some tests that you can do, but they may not be totally accurate. If you know of any reliable companies that do this, please share!

   [Also, she has beautiful ringlets. It's interesting, because she gets TONS of hair compliments from strangers wherever we go, who say nothing about my bio daughter's hair (brownish-blond and stick-straight). However, my bio daughter always got the "beautiful blue eyes" comments when she was a baby and toddler. Funny how people feel free to comment on toddlers appearances the way they wouldn't with older kids or adults. Actually, maybe it's not such a bad thing. It would probably make my day if a stranger complimented me on my hair or something.]
8. Marcy Webb says:

   June 20, 2009 at 10:26 am

   Those attributes which make us who we are, as human beings, such as hair, skin, metabolism, etc. become very complex and complicated when we add gender and race to the proverbial equation, they become even more complex and complicated. I am a Black American, of two Black American parents, and there is variation in our hair texture and skin tone. While my mother grew up under the “good hair/bad hair” paradigm” I have worked hard to neither perpetuate or succumb to it, because, like most things, it is a socially-constructed paradigm designed to divide, separate, and create hierarchies.

   I think that the dilemmas presented by Good Karma and Torey are not only opportunities to educate our children when it is appropriate to do so, but also to engage those making the comments in those conversations, especially if they are family members and close friends. For the man/woman on the street, I think the only thing that needs to be said is, “Yes, there are many wonderful things which make my son/daughter who he/she is, and the same is true for you.”

   Just a thought.
9. Lyonside says:

   June 20, 2009 at 11:56 am

   Re: Physical features and praise based on white privilege:

   One way to mitigate: model the behavior you’d rather see in other people. I.e. around your kids, especially, but to other parents too, honestly compliment the features of babies, children, celebrities, etc. that don’t stem from white privilege. It does send the message to your kids that other types of beauty/positive features are out there, as well as maybe ping something in another adult’s brain without embarassing them.

   I’m trying to do this w/ my daughter, and won’t know for a while whether I’ve been successful. She’s black/white/Latina, and people have often mentioned the contrast between her dark hair and her fair skin. But when someone compliments her appearance, I do find myself trying not to agree when it’s her skin, her hair texture, etc. that’s being pointed out and praised.

   Which means I bite back the automatic “thank you,” and end up deflecting, changing the topic, or if possible/relevant, complimenting the other person’s kid for a non-physical feature or for a non-white-normative feature if the child is non-white. I have no idea how this looks to another parent (probably not good).

   I don’t obviously point out color, etc. WRT her dolls, books, people on the street, etc. But I do call all her dolls “pretty” regardless of color, and I’m trying to build an inclusive library that makes non-white images a matter of fact and not a one-time-thing.

   And it goes beyond color/ethnicity into other modeling: I want her to have a healthy body image, and that means pointing out people of all shapes, sizes, abilities, etc. and making that part of what she thinks of as “normal.” I’m still struggling w/ that part, honestly, as in how to model/incorporate it.
10. Katie says:

    June 20, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Yeah, that auto-playing ad on here is really annoying. Is that fixable?

    Also, I noticed that Sasha Baron Cohen, in his role as Bruno, is making public appearances with an entourage of all black men. We saw this shit with Gwen Stefani and her Asian entourage – the same tokenism is at work here. Ugh.
11. Amanda Casabianca says:

    June 20, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    @Torey, I think you should always remember that having European pride is wonderful, as are blue eyes, brown eyes etc and that it does not equal Eurocentricity just as being proud of being African -American does not make one a black separatist. Many European Americans are getting manipulated into extremism these because they grow up seeing many previously lauded cultral markers of Europe as now “bad’ and “passe” and most multi-cultural ones as preferable. The pendulum has not swung entirely the other way but it begs the question, can Euro-Americans feel pride without feeling like racists? Especially now that white privilege is becoming a thing of the past in many respects in the western world.

    It’s important to remember that multi-cultural includes ALL cultures and racists.

    If he has any friends (or the parents of friends cause that is where it comes from) that display racist behavior than you have to be careful because peer pressure is usually where racism can grab a hold of even the most rational and tolerant kids.

    You can buy many great kids books about famous people of color who have had exciting and inspiring lives as well as books that show the awful impact of racism. As a European Americans, we have to remind our children that they share the planet with others who despite looking or sounding different are their equals and potential allies in making a the world a peaceful and open place. Traveling to another country is fantastic as a learning tool as well.

    @Karma, My husband and I are due to have our first baby soon. I’m Southern Italian, American, I’m very old world looking (curly hair, olive skin, eg: “Terrone” traits that the many racists in the north hate) compared to most Italian American who blend in well with the Irish and Germans and my husband is indigenous Anglo Saxon/British/Irish.

    We both have ringlety curly hair so we may have some hair raising adventures with our son. I know MY hair was hell growing up, a night mare, largely because it screamed ‘non-white” to many racists of varying shades, races, ages and rudeness. You have to be there when the questions arise.

    “I know most of these comments are harmless but some have a lot of history and baggage behind them.”

    Wow, you said it. And a lot of it coming from both black and white communities. It boggles the mind when some consider that their whole life would have been different (and much easier) with straight hair.

    Meanwhile, the Sylvester McMonkey McBeans of the world are getting RICH, RICH, RICH off of the Star Belly Sneetches …
12. Amanda Casabianca says:

    June 20, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    “It’s important to remember that multi-cultural includes ALL cultures and racists.”

    AAHHH< I meant *RACES*

    I DO wish this wonderful website had comment preview!
13. Adrienne Gravish says:

    June 20, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    Were my previous posts too long? I can always post again but keep it shorter.
14. Amanda Casabianca says:

    June 21, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    @Janell

    “What I’m wondering is, does anyone know anything about DNA testing to determine ethnic background”

    Hearing from a few people who have had it done it, it is supposed to be great fun and well worth the money.

    http://www.dnatribes.com/index.html

    I’ve been told this is the best site for pro-diversity people and they are very helpful.

    I also found this related NY Times article interesting:

    “Samuel M. Richards, who teaches Sociology 119, Race and Ethnic Relations, to 500 students each semester, said the DNA tests, which were conducted last year for the first time, were very popular with the class.

    “Everyone wants to take the test, even students who think they are 100 percent one race or another, and almost every one of them wants to discover something, that they’re 1 percent Asian or something. It’s a badge in this multicultural world,” he said.

    About half of the 100 students tested this semester were white, he said, “And every one of them said, ‘Oh man, I hope I’m part black,’ because it would upset their parents.

    “That’s this generation,” he said. “People want to identify with this pop multiracial culture. They don’t want to live next to it, but they want to be part of it. It’s cool.”
15. Lyonside says:

    June 21, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    Janell: first off, welcome!

    Second – re: genetic testing: there are a few companies, but they use the same science, so it’s not a matter of one being better than another (other than their own internal procedures, which may vary). As you probably know, there are no “black” “white” “brown” genes, just like there are no distinct “European” “African” “Asian” etc. genes.

    What you get is a percentage of likely origins, and that doesn’t pinpoint a country… it can show a likely region, if they find a gene that is very common to one group – but that isn’t conclusive or absolute.
16. Andrea says:

    June 21, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    I think it’s overkill to worry that someone complimenting your kid thinks he’s cute because he’s white or a blue-eyed blond. Most little kids are cute and kids who have features that stick out are always going to be complimented on them, whether it’s curly hair or a particularly pretty shade of blue eyes or the contrast between blonde hair and an olive complexion. But I’d find it a little odd if someone went into too much detail when praising a kid. When I feel moved to comment on a little one’s appearance, I usually settle for the all purpose “What a cutie!” Mom beams and all feel good and move on with their day.
17. Susan says:

    June 21, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    My husband and I are AA, raising an AA child. We live in a predominantly white neighborhood and I worry about race relations. Not for myself, but for my kid. I worry about her being excluded from parties that all the other neighborhood kids are invited to. (This has happened a few times).

    Now, I don’t expect to be invited to everything, and I understnad the dynamics of trying to keep a b-party small. But I’m talking about parties where everyone on the block is invited except your child.

    Halloween is coming up in a few months. I wanted my daughter to dress up as the AA fairy. But those costumes are not out yet. Sad about that. I hope they come out in time for Halloween.

    Lastly… I’m sad/embarrassed to say this. But a tiny part of me (the conspiracy theory part) thinks that Disney will deliberately withold that custume …. hey, you never know.
18. dersk says:

    June 22, 2009 at 7:39 am

    @Amanda: Frankly, I think it’s pretty dumb to be proud of being black, white, having European ancestry, or being left-handed – how can you be proud of something you’ve personally done nothing to achieve?

    @Katie: I’m pretty sure that he’s *mocking* the fetishization of black men.

    @Jannel: You might want to try the National Geographic Genographic Project, which would have the extra bonus of supporting scientific research. They’ll do the analysis. But, keep in mind that race as discussed on this board is almost entirely a social construct and doesn’t have much to do with real genetics. So, while interesting, I don’t know how much DNA analysis would help in getting your kid to have a mental image of her history…
19. Tami Winfrey Harris says:

    June 22, 2009 at 8:22 am

    Dersk,

    I disagree that genetic testing cannot offer a mental image of history. Since I began doing genealogical research into my family and dabbling in genetic testing, it has given me a fuller idea of the rich history of my family and ancestors.

    As the descendant of slaves, so much of my cultural history has been erased. I don’t know where my ancestors came from–except to know that most came from somewhere on the continent of Africa and some others came from somewhere on the continent of Europe, where else they may have hailed from I don’t know. I don’t know which family traditions may have roots that extend way beyond the Southern United States.

    Many African American children raised in the United States learn only that their ancestors were slaves–that there was nothing of us until we came here in chains. Because of genetic testing, I can tell my nieces and nephews about the really cool African culture from which our matrilineal line sprung. I can give them an idea of where and what tribes we come from.

    Genetic testing also puts the lie to many of the divisions of black and white and otherwise that we create in this country. In my genealogical research, I only need go back three generations before more than 50 percent of the people on my tree are listed as “mulatto” on census records. Autosomal testing, which seeks to identify percentages of racial makeup, bears that out. That too gives me a fuller perspective of not just my family’s history, but our country’s history as well. My situation is hardly unique.

    Janell- The National Geographic project is a good one. I highly recommend it. But it won’t really give you what you are looking for. It deals with deep, deep ancestry. What you want to search for is autosomal testing. The most well know company for this has folded, but several others have sprung up to take its place. I can’t remember their names at the moment.

    I did some basic autosomal testing through Family Tree DNA. You get results, but they don’t analyze them. You have to feed them into the Omnipop database and figure it out yourself. Cheaper, though.
20. Amanda Casabianca says:

    June 22, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    dersk wrote:

    “@Amanda: Frankly, I think it’s pretty dumb to be proud of being black, white, having European ancestry, or being left-handed – how can you be proud of something you’ve personally done nothing to achieve?”

    @dersk: Oh really? Tell that to a confused little kid being bullied on a playground who has no father figure or simply does not understand or is struggling to negotiate with a potentially invasive and vicious society (not to mention media) who is judging them on their appearance aka something that they “personally have done nothing to achieve?”

    They may not have “achieved it” but they sure as heck have to live with it. Why not give a child a sense of pride in that cultural identity/identities? Given that every culture on this planet is offering something uniquely historical and amazing it builds a more ethical and intelligent society. Please don’t confuse my reasoning with ‘racial separatism’ or ethnocentricity. Black white or Latino… I don’t like any ethnocentric pride, it breeds extremism.

    Saying that cultural identity, pride and understanding is “pretty dumb” simply because we popped out looking like what we are, makes no sense given how pivotal this is to the majority of everyone else.

    Its the entire reason this blog exists!

    And while I’m all for fighting the majority in many ways, I don’t think a color blind society is possible as much as I’d like that.
21. Janell says:

    June 23, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    Thanks so much everyone for the input on genetic testing. I’m going to look into all of the ones recommended here. I know they will by no means give us all of the answers, but at least it’s something we can share with our daughter to give her an idea of the possibilities.

    I think sometimes about how the not knowing will affect her growing up. What box is she supposed to check when faced with the “ethnic background” question? What about at the multicultural picnic at her school when everyone is supposed to bring a dish that comes from one of their cultures of origin?
    What about answering questions that other kids at school may ask her?

    I just want to do the best for her that I can, and I feel like I need to be better prepared to anticipate any unique needs or issues that may come up as she gets older. That’s why I’m here. Thanks for welcoming me!
22. dersk says:

    June 24, 2009 at 6:28 am

    @Tami – I wasn’t saying that DNA testing isn’t interesting and couldn’t give useful information. The NatGeo project is delivering huge value in understanding the history of human beings in general, and a DNA analysis can be useful in constructing your own personal original story. It’s just that it’s pretty much unrelated to the social construct of race (white doesn’t match a group in particular, nor does black – there are three or four main genetic phenotypes in Africa, and that’s even before you decide if you’re going to use the British or the American definition of black).

    @Amanda: Yes, really. You’ve misunderstood my point, when you say that I said that “cultural identity, pride and understanding [are] “pretty dumb””.

    I only said, and would continue to assert, that pride is dumb. Identity and understanding are neutral, while pride is applying some positive value to oneself. It’s the difference between being, say, proud to be American vs. glad to be American.
23. Amanda Casabianca says:

    June 24, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    “Identity and understanding are neutral, while pride is applying some positive value to oneself.”

    @Dersk: Perhaps to you, but in my experience they mean very different things. One can and imho should find a strong personally centered sense of self in pride their cultural and or racial background(s) , especially if they have been denied that by others. Identity can’t really be “neutral” when people are in your face but your reaction to their invasive actions can be. Its not a matter of being reactionary, its a matter of personal choice and equanimity.

    Just take for instance a mother I knew, out having fun with her Guatemalan adopted daughter and they were approached out of nowhere by an older kid who made a rude, uniformed comment (eg: “You weren’t borned from your mom, she’s not your real mom! You have dirty skin!)

    I’m not really seeing a “neutral” path to negotiate with that kind of ignorance. One does not have to get angry but one has to be pro-active and squelch that kind of hurt.
    The answer for the Mum was to instill pride via her daughter’s cultural heritage as well as reinforce that she was in every way her mum’s REAL daughter.

    Once again, many people of European descent are turning around and saying “Wow, I know more about the cultural history of African-America and Hispanics than I do my own” , and asking, “why”?
    Not out of “racism” but out of wanting more of a balance in education.

    After spending a full decade working for the restoration of a great African American (Paul Robeson) and working for minority related causes, I realized that I needed to explore my cultural identify as an Italian/European American. Robeson himself argued for racial pride but without separatism. People celebrating who they are where they came from as a way of connecting with each other throughout the entire world-third world or first world.
    And I am proud of what I discovered when. Had it been taught , moreover instilled in me as child it would have saved me a huge amount of confusion. The neutral melting pot myth has imho, worked for no one and has just fostered more and more racist extremism.