Open thread

26 Responses to Open thread

1. Julia says:

   March 11, 2010 at 11:00 am

   Thinking about TTBoot’s comment on the basketball thread about giving children of color tools to cope with racism and be successful in a racist world. Feeling like I don’t know as much as I’d like about what these tools are and how best to teach them. I’d appreciate any advice, book recommendations, etc, etc…
2. Karen L says:

   March 11, 2010 at 4:00 pm

   I’m thinking about something my husband said when we were discussing our kids’ racial identity. My husband is Canadian-b0rn-Chinese and I am white. We have a 2-yo boy and a 8-mo girl, both our biological children. I’ve seen a fair number of things about multiracial children’s perception of their own racial identity and that of their parents’ but not the other way around.

   Even though we “know” that our kids are both white and Asian, I asked my husband whether he more perceived our son to be white or Asian. He paused and replied that he perceives him to be Asian, probably because he perceives him to be the same as himself. His perception of our daughter’s race is more that she is white because he sees her as more like me. After I thought about it, I realised that I had mostly the same view. So obviously, there could be a major gender bias to our perceptions. But going by what other people have said to me, this also matches how they “look” to the world: my son looks more Asian, my daughter looks more white, for now. But I obviously have a clouded view.

   So things that I’m still thinking about.
   1 – Is this a common pattern – to perceive your multi-racial child’s race to “match” your own? Is it more common for same-gender children?
   2 – How does our perception of our kids’ race matter? at their various ages/stages of self-identification?
   3- Are there particular dangers in perceiving our multi-racial children as white, e.g., being less attentive to their lack of privilege?
   4- Are there particular dangers (especially for me the white parent) in perceiving our multi-racial children as Asian, e.g., othering them?
   5- Corollary to 3&4: Are there particular dangers in perceiving our multi-racial children as anything but multi-racial?
   6- What can help us make sure that our perceptions don’t conflict with their eventual self-identifications?
   7- How will it matter if their eventual self-identifications don’t match their sibling(s)’s?
   8- How will it matter if the world perceives one as Asian and the other as white, i.e., one is afforded more white privilege than the other?

   Interestingly, long before I was even of dating age, I saw a Geraldo show (from before he jumped the shark, yes, I’m really dating myself) about an adult brother and sister in a similar situation and it has always stuck with me. Their self-identifications didn’t match each other and it caused a LOT of conflict in their family. Interestingly, their self-identifications didn’t match their “appearance” either. The man looked like a black man but identified as white. The woman looked white but identified as black. I don’t know why this has stuck with me all these years.

   How have other readers dealt with these questions? Any book recommendations about racial identity within multi-racial families?

   Sorry for the novel.
3. Wowsers says:

   March 12, 2010 at 1:52 am

   I just picked up a copy of a book called Does Anybody Else Look Like Me? A parents Guide to Raising Multiracial children from the library – http://www.amazon.com/Anybody-Parents-Raising-Multiracial-Children/dp/0738206059. I’m about 20 pages in, but you might to pick up a copy.

   I’m biracial myself although I’m not a big fan of labels like that since they never seem to fit. My dad was “black” but he had nearly 200+ years of slave/slaveowner intimate relations intermixed in all that. My mom in theory was “white” but she’s got a nice olive complexion and she tans fantastically well, so I’m not entirely convinced that she’s the pure German/Irish combo that she’s purported to be. Anyway – I’ve always felt that I wasn’t really either white or black, but me. I guess what I’m saying is that they don’t need to pick a side. It’s not West Side Story…

   I’m married to a caucasian man, and my two girls are very light skinned with bone straight hair – they would have “passed” for white back in the dark ages. My son is a bit darker but he’s got a mop of curly hair. I don’t know what the world will think of him. We mention that our kids have both black and white. My six year old identifies as tan – whatever that is. What I’m trying to learn now is how to raise kids that can stand up to prejudice and bigotry. I wouldn’t ever want them to feel like they needed to swallow some sort of their identity to fit in – so if there are schoolyard taunts based on color they can take a stand against that – especially since it’s not immediately evident that our family is multiracial. I know that it always pained both of my parents to hear acquaintances make derogatory comments about white people or black people…
4. dersk says:

   March 12, 2010 at 8:27 am

   Just read about yet another semantic controversy. An educator in Florida is being protested for referring to a group of unidentified troublemaking students as ‘hoodlums.’

   Evidently, the word ‘hoodlum’ now has a racial overtone to it? Does that resonate with anyone? I mean, when I think of the word, I think more of a teenage petty criminal from the ’50s (a la Jets and Sharks).
5. dersk says:

   March 12, 2010 at 8:28 am

   Funny – didn’t even notice that the previous post also had a West Side Story reference!
6. Tami Winfrey Harris says:

   March 12, 2010 at 8:43 am

   dersk,

   In modern-day America I do think there is a racial gap in how the term “hoodlum,” and in a greater sense, “thug,” is applied. Troublemaking white kids are likely to be framed as kids who happened to do a bad thing. There is no blanket label given to their overall character. However, troublemaking kids of color, no matter how benign the troublemaking, are often labeled “hoodlums.” For instance, I have witnessed the term applied to young black boys or girls who are simply being noisy, as teens tend to be. A rowdy bunch of brown kids = hoodlums and thugs.
7. dersk says:

   March 12, 2010 at 8:55 am

   Right – I understand what you mean, but in this case she wasn’t talking about a particularly identified group of students. In this situation, the principal (or administrator, I think) was referring generally to a bunch of troublemaking students in the abstract. As in: “there’s a bunch of hoodlums making trouble” not “look at that bunch of hoodlums,” if you see what I mean.

   Maybe there’s more to the story that changes what her percevied intent was, but it does seem to me to be about as silly as the ‘niggardly’ controversy in DC…
8. Julia says:

   March 12, 2010 at 10:32 am

   Karen,
   SUCH interesting questions. I don’t have answers, but wanted to refer you to this blog (it’s not active anymore, but you could peruse the archives): http://ourkindofparenting.blogspot.com/ It’s written by a mother of fraternal twins: one tends to be perceived as black, and the other as white. She writes about the challenges of this.
9. Montclair Mommy says:

   March 12, 2010 at 1:15 pm

   @Wowsers: That is so funny b/c I just posted a recommendation to you for that book on another thread!

   That’s a good one…but I also recommend “I’m Chocolate, You’re Vanilla” for multiracial families. Seems to focus more on black/white to my memory (its been awhile), but its still great and informative.

   @Karen L Great questions! I can only answer a few from my own perspective.

   1. I don’t know if its common but I can say that I did perceive my son’s race as “matching” my own when he was first born. I would never have said I didn’t think of him as biracial/black. I did. In theory and in how I described him to others. But in my own PERCEPTION of him…no. When I looked at him I identified so strongly with him that I honestly only saw myself. I didn’t see even my husband really. I only saw me. I thought he looked exactly like me. I remember how it seemed that a lot of older Black women stopped to coo over him and say how beautiful he was…but I thought nothing of it. THe first time someone asked me whether he was Black I was kind of taken aback. I mean, I was proud to say that yes he was but I was baffled as to how they would know! He was only about 6 or 7 weeks old and I was pretty hormonally charged at the time and I could have SWORN he looked just like me just a little more tan! I went home and I asked my husband, “Do you think its obvious that he is not white?” The look my DH gave me!! Whew! A mixture of ‘is this woman insane?’ and “you’re playing with me, right?’ He said, “Um. Yes. No one would ever think he was just white” I just didn’t see it! I see it now, though.

   2. I think it does matter how we perceive our children’s race. I wouldn’t want to give my son the idea that it was BETTER to be one or the other. I also wouldn’t want to give him the idea that I would prefer a child that was the same as me, racially. I want him to feel very proud of his Black/biracial identity background and then feel empowered to identify in a way that he feels suits him best over the years (realizing that it might shift and become more nuanced as he changes and grows emotionally). I also don’t want to assume that if I have another child, that child will identify the same way. And I don’t want them to feel as if there is a “right” way to identify themselves or that we (their parents) will judge them for their decisions in that arena. While I don’t want to make them feel that looking a certain way is “better”…I also want to be honest about the fact that you can have varying degrees of privilege based upon your appearance. That’s a tricky one. I mean you want to make sure your son feels empowered by being and appearing Asian. You want him to feel attractive and capable. But at the same time you don’t want to delude him into thinking that it won’t be harder because he appears ‘non-white’ at the outset when his sister might not. She may get certain advantages he doesn’t get and to ignore that is to ignore his experience. At the same time, you don’t want to give the impression that looking whiter is better. That’s tough!

   I wish I knew what to tell you about that! I feel like its pretty likely that any other children I have will be similarly easily identified as “Black/biracial.” I am fairly tan and very dark haired for a white person. And I have dark eyes and very fluffy and textured hair. I don’t really see how any child of mine and my husbands could not have the same beautiful dark brown eyes, thick curly black hair and dark caramel complexion that our son has, to be honest. If I’m wrong about that, I’ll have to re-evaluate.

   2 – How does our perception of our kids’ race matter? at their various ages/stages of self-identification?
   3- Are there particular dangers in perceiving our multi-racial children as white, e.g., being less attentive to their lack of privilege?
   4- Are there particular dangers (especially for me the white parent) in perceiving our multi-racial children as Asian, e.g., othering them?
   5- Corollary to 3&4: Are there particular dangers in perceiving our multi-racial children as anything but multi-racial?
   6- What can help us make sure that our perceptions don’t conflict with their eventual self-identifications?
   7- How will it matter if their eventual self-identifications don’t match their sibling(s)’s?
   8- How will it matter if the world perceives one as Asian and the other as white, i.e., one is afforded more white privilege than the other?
10. Karen L says:

    March 12, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    @Julia, thanks for the link!

    @Wowsers, thanks for the recommendation and sharing. And yes, my post does belie a “pick a side” sort of thinking. Thanks for checking me. I once read a great post at (or link from?) Curly Kidz about a “bill of rights” for POC (or was it just specifically multiracial people) to identify however, whenever they choose without judgement. I can’t find the post in the archives though.
11. Karen L says:

    March 12, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    @dersk.
    You wrote: As in: “there’s a bunch of hoodlums making trouble” not “look at that bunch of hoodlums,” if you see what I mean. Maybe there’s more to the story that changes what her percevied intent was

    I see what you mean and I don’t condone the hair-splitting. The word is loaded. You asked. You were told so. Why push back? Loaded words are loaded in all contexts (abstract or concrete) and serve to discipline/silence/intimidate marginalised people, especially when used in a supposedly unrelated context by a privileged person. And why are we talking about intent? Racism 101 – impact matters, intent doesn’t.

    You wrote: but it does seem to me to be about as silly as the ‘niggardly’ controversy in DC…

    Dude. I’m calling hipster racism. It matters that niggardly sounds like the N-word. It makes it a loaded word – history, etymology, dictionaries be damned. It matters when white people “just happen” to use it. And I don’t really believe that anyone “just happens” to use it. It’s an obsure word that hardly anyone would know about except for this controversy and hardly anyone except a show-off would use. Anyone who knows the word also knows at least half a dozen synonyms. Even if one white person, “just so happened” to use niggardly perfectly neutrally and caught trouble for it, other white people bringing that case up over and over again is a problem. Gosh – what a silly fuss people are making over possibly the most offensive word in the English language. Innocent white people just cannot catch a break these days.

    I’m calling hipster racism because it is just so delightful to get to *almost* use the N-word.

    *unjerking knee*

    Do you perchance read Stuff White People Do? Here’s a comment about niggardly. You may want to note “randy’s” comments and the responses to it.
12. Emma says:

    March 12, 2010 at 7:19 pm

    @Karen L
    I’m a high school student with a Korean-American father and white mother, so I thought I’d answer your questions from the kid’s perspective.
    1. My mother has always thought of me as Korean-American or multiracial, and I think that my father sees me the same way. I have, however, seen this tendency in other multiracial families, especially with children who are of the parent’s gender, more especially if the children are assumed to be of different races/ethnicities.
    2. When I was young, my parents told me I was biracial, and this is always how I have seen myself. However, my understanding of what it means for me to be multiracial has deepened and changed since my early childhood. I also think it is important to emphasize that while your kids are multiracial, they are also Chinese-American/Chinese-Canadian. This is something I wish my parents had done more when I was younger. Lastly, I think it’s important to respect whatever your children choose to identify as.
    3. Yes, I think so, because it will ignore both their lack of privilege and their connections to people of Chinese descent. As your kids get older, they may also decide that they take issue with this.
    4. Yes, there are dangers to this, too. I think the biggest problem for me, if my mother identified me as Asian (which she has done in the past) is ignoring how multiracial Asian kids can have a hard time with issues of acceptance from non-multiracial Asians.
    5. I think the potential problem with this is that they might decide later they’d prefer to identify some other way. However, I think that identifying them as multiracial is the best thing while they are young.
    6. Leave it somewhat open. Let them know that however they identify is OK.
    I am leaving out answers to your last two questions because I cannot answer them from my experience, and the answers I did come up with were speculative and vague. Best of luck, and I hope this is of some help to you.
13. Karen L says:

    March 13, 2010 at 1:39 am

    @Montclair Mommy and @Emma, Thanks so much for your input. You’ve both definitely helped me.
14. S's mom says:

    March 13, 2010 at 2:48 am

    Wow, Emma, that is a great post. Thanks.
15. sharon says:

    March 13, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    I don’t think it’s quite true that “loaded words are loaded in all contexts.” Some words DO have different meanings to different groups of people. Also, language isn’t static. I don’t think words are inherently and everywhere good or bad. The meanings and connotations of words change over time and change in different ways for different groups of people (of different ethnicities, different ages, different geographic locales, different sexual orientations, different genders). For example, think about the word “queer…”

    OK, maybe it seems like *I* am splitting hairs, but I’m trying to make the point that language is perhaps not as simple as Karen L. makes it out to be.

    I do think it’s important for people to educate themselves about words that might have negative connotations or be insulting in certain contexts. Such understanding will facilitate communicating with different groups of people in ways that avoid unintentional (or intentional!) offense or awkwardness. I think this is especially important for anyone who speaks in public or speaks to broad populations, such as teachers, politicians, etc. (And I certainly agree that there are SOME words that have such negative connotations that they should be avoided altogether.)

    One of my colleagues does survey development, and she uses a technique called cognitive interviewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_pretesting) for gaining insight about how the intended group to be surveyed interprets/understands the survey questions. I think it’s a fascinating–and complex–type of research.
16. sofia says:

    March 14, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Hi, Karen – I’ll try to answer some of your questions from my own perspective.

    1 – Is this a common pattern – to perceive your multi-racial child’s race to “match” your own? Is it more common for same-gender children?
    When my daughter was a baby, I definitely tended to think of her as being black/multiracial (like me). But as she’s gotten older and her own personality becomes more individuated, I just see her as being multiracial. Although, I do wonder if politically, she will identify as black. My husband and I talk regularly about how others will perceive her and wonder how she might identify. We see it as her choice.

    2 – How does our perception of our kids’ race matter? at their various ages/stages of self-identification?
    I think a whole book could be written about this – and probably not by me. All I can say at this point is that it’s important that we hash this stuff out with thoughtful adults so that we don’t unconsciously say crappy things to our kids.

    3- Are there particular dangers in perceiving our multi-racial children as white, e.g., being less attentive to their lack of privilege?
    I don’t know; we are not white. Hubby and I are POC and our daughter is POC. I think of her privilege as being more about being of “ambiguous” ethnicity versus more clearly black (me) or seemingly Asian (dad). I think this is very different than having to deal with the POC/White dichotomy.

    4- Are there particular dangers (especially for me the white parent) in perceiving our multi-racial children as Asian, e.g., othering them?
    I don’t feel equipped to answer this question for a white person. I know for myself, being not particularly familiar with my husband’s Asian heritage, I am careful not to claim more knowledge than I have about it. I let my husband’s family take the lead on introducing things from their heritage to our daughter (she sees them every week).

    5- Corollary to 3&4: Are there particular dangers in perceiving our multi-racial children as anything but multi-racial?
    It’s kind of easy for multiracial to become a catchall phrase that doesn’t get specific. On the other hand, you can only be as specific about ones ethnicity with your child(ren) as one actually IS. For example, I can’t immerse my child in Japanese culture, when her father and grandmother were not immersed in Japanese culture. That would be kind of fake. In any case, we are American … we do have a culture as Americans, too. I think the danger of “putting on” race is often a danger.

    6- What can help us make sure that our perceptions don’t conflict with their eventual self-identifications?
    Talking with them about our own racial and cultural identities, exposing them to others’ ideas (age appropriately), and not being afraid to talk about race. Race comes up almost every day in our household. (Granted, I studied cultural studies, but I’m not the only one who brings it up.)

    7- How will it matter if their eventual self-identifications don’t match their sibling(s)’s?
    I can’t speak to this from personal experience, but my husband and his brother do not appear to be the same race despite having the same parents, and it doesn’t seem to have come between them. It sounds like his brother got crappier treatment in school and much of his life, being very brown skinned with kinky hair. But these things can be hard to quantify. Fortunately, they are very close as brothers, and their relationship doesn’t seem to be harmed. But the important thing is that the parents never expressed any preferences, and they protected and provided for both sons equitably as they went through the educational system. They may have had to go to bat for my brother in law more often and with more vigor, and they did that without hesitation. I think as a parent you have to have your eyes and ears open to be on alert for preferences or prejudices that your kids are being subjected to and make sure that you are a resource for them. You can’t anticipate every situation, but you can … again, talk about it.

    8- How will it matter if the world perceives one as Asian and the other as white, i.e., one is afforded more white privilege than the other?
    How will it matter? I don’t know. So much comes into play – we are certainly more than just racial appearances. We are also personalities, and preferences. If you have a child who looks asian and happens to fit a lot of Asian stereotypes, that is going to be different than if they defy a lot of stereotypes. Also, where you live and who you interact with, and how they themselves perceive being Asian, etc. will all influence how they perceive themselves, which matters as much, if not more, as how others perceive them.
17. dersk says:

    March 15, 2010 at 6:51 am

    @Karen – I think I’m as offended to be called a hipster as to be called a racist.

    Maybe I didn’t state my question accurately enough: Tami’s reply was that a group of black kids is more likely to be labelled as hoodlums than a group of white kids. My question was: would people automatically associate the word ‘hoodlum’ with black kids, which is a different question. That’s not splitting hairs; that’s a different question.

    OK, would you be happier if instead of using the ‘niggardly’ example I used the example of people disliking the word history because they see a gender bias in it?

    And didn’t you just argue *against* your point by saying that it’s the intent that matters?
18. dersk says:

    March 15, 2010 at 6:55 am

    Incidentally, I was asking if anyone knew the population breakdown between immigrants and descendants of slaves – just found this article on Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2243536/

    It asserts that 10% of black Americans are either immigrants or the children of immigrants, and that the nmber of immigrants is now greater than the number of people ‘forcibly imported’ (interesting euphemism).
19. TTBoot says:

    March 15, 2010 at 9:24 am

    @derek and Karen, I’m going to jump in to the niggardly conversation here. I know the definition of niggardly and have even been know to use properly in a sentence during normal conversation with friends. And I’m black. However I am also overly educated (have a Ph.D.) and that IMHO needs to be part of the discussion. Intersection of education and race. Many people did not know what that word meant so were reacting to what the word sounded like. So just to be devils advocate here, should we condemn the overeducated person who is using the english language properly or should we strive to increase the education of others so they understand the word is not a racial insult. I vote for education, in part because in our country best indicator of poverty is low educational attainment and unfortunately poverty is synonymous with minority in our country. Similar to the word thug invoking images of black for some people.

    @Julia, I am still working on a post detailing the tools my parents passed on to me.
20. Julia says:

    March 15, 2010 at 10:35 am

    @dersk,
    It IS a different question, but is it a case of a distinction without a difference? That is, if a term is applied disproportionately to one racial group than another, than the term becomes racialized almost by definition. And that there IS an outcry about the professor’s use of this word also suggests that the term has become racialized.

    If you’re asking: Is this common knowledge? , I can only answer for myself. I wasn’t aware before this post.
21. Emma says:

    March 15, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    My family got our census form today. If you’ve gotten the form, thoughts? Some things I noticed:
    -”Negro ” was listed as an option, along with black and African-american. I heard somewhere that this was because people wrote it in on the 2000 census, but it still seems archaic. There was also no place to indicate a more specific ethicity for African-Americans (like if you wanted to fill in a specific country of origin for recent African immigrants.
    - Argentinean, Columbian, Dominican, etc. were considered origins, but Laotian, Pakistani, Cambodian, etc. were considered races.
22. Montclair Mommy says:

    March 15, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    @dersk: I have to jump in here and say that do not assume that Black Americans cannot be both immigrants AND descendents of slaves. For example, a new American originally from Haiti or Sierra Leone may be an immigrant AND a descendent of slaves. A lot of people do not know this, but there were men and women forcibly taken from Africa and made to be slaves that became free Black people either through fighting/working on behalf of the British during the Revolutionary war or through other means (running away, buying their own freedom or being freed by another person). Some of those free Blacks were then re-settled in New England, the U.K., or Canada and then “re-patriated” to Freetown in Sierra Leone as part of the abolitionists 18th century ‘Back to Africa’ type movement. So, people like my MIL and FIL are both immigrants and descendents of slaves.
23. dersk says:

    March 16, 2010 at 7:50 am

    @Montclair – Yep, and of course intermarriage and mixing over the years makes it impossible to come up with an exact number. Definitely interesting to see an actual number, though.

    @TT – I’m with you. Perhaps I’m naive, but this is how I think the conversation ought to have gone:

    Councilman: We can’t have a niggardly budget…
    Person: Whaaaa…?!
    Councilman: Oh, niggardly. Yeah, it means miserly and isn’t related.
    Person: Oh, okay.

    @Julia – that was exactly my question. Do people think ‘black kids’ when they hear the word ‘hoodlums’?
24. Montclair Mommy says:

    March 16, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    @ Emma: the Census….SIGH. I feel like its a good way for white people to say “Look, 2/3 of black children don’t have fathers!” (based on a stat that says that 65% of black children live with one parent…which does not mean they don’t have fathers in their lives, people!) This conveniently negates all of the limitations of Census data such as the fact that there are 3 (!!) different ways to identify as AA. And what about the people that don’t identify as “black” b/c they identify as biracial or because they identify as Latin@? And it irritates me that people that identify as black can’t specify their countries of origin if they are immigrants. What about all of the black Jamaicans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, people from the Virgin Islands, and Nigerians? Is it unimportant where they come from because people would rather think that all black people come from great big generic “Africa”? Sorry. I need to calm down. I get the purpose of the Census but it still irritates me.
25. Julia says:

    March 17, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Hey TTBoot,
    I am looking forward to what you write. Thanks so much for being willing to share you and your parents’ wisdom.
26. Mara says:

    April 17, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    Recently, I found the 2010 Census form hanging on my door. As I began filling it out, I came across a dilemma. The U.S. government wants to know if my children are adopted or not and it wants to know what our races are. Being adopted myself, I had to put “Other” and “Don’t Know Adopted” for my race and “Other” and “Don’t Know” for my kids’ races.

    Can you imagine not knowing your ethnicity, your race? Now imagine walking into a vital records office and asking the clerk for your original birth certificate only to be told “No, you can’t have it, it’s sealed.”

    How about being presented with a “family history form” to fill out at every single doctor’s office visit and having to put “N/A Adopted” where life saving information should be?

    Imagine being asked what your nationality is and having to respond with “I don’t know”.

    It is time that the archaic practice of sealing and altering birth certificates of adopted persons stops.

    Adoption is a 5 billion dollar, unregulated industry that profits from the sale and redistribution of children. It turns children into chattel who are re-labeled and sold as “blank slates”.

    Genealogy, a modern-day fascination, cannot be enjoyed by adopted persons with sealed identities. Family trees are exclusive to the non-adopted persons in our society.

    If adoption is truly to return to what is best for a child, then the rights of children to their biological identities should NEVER be violated. Every single judge that finalizes an adoption and orders a child’s birth certificate to be sealed should be ashamed of him/herself.

    I challenge all readers: Ask the adopted persons that you know if their original birth certificates are sealed.