Open thread

14 Responses to Open thread

1. agibean says:

   April 22, 2010 at 5:24 pm

   Perfect-I need this open thread to get a little perspective. I’m the white mother of a biracial 10 year old. Her father, my husband, is black. She’s the only black child in her gifted 5th grade class, and one of only a handful in the entire program our public school system offers. Yesterday she brought home her first ever in-depth research paper.

   She had chosen to present how in segregated schools “separate was not equal”. Her father and I, both writers, thought she presented her required “proof” rather well, by citing the typically poorer schools, less-trained teachers, lack of materials, not to mention the lack of basic facilities in some places when it came to black schools vs. white ones.

   The teacher’s comments on the paper were pretty reasonable-there were places she could have improved, places she did well. But our daughter was really down when she got home because the (white) writing teacher took her aside and said “You DO know that some BLACK schools were good and that some WHITE schools were BAD, right?”

   Well, YES, that’s why she used “some” or “many” to qualify her statements. It seemed to both DD and us that the teacher was having a “Stuff White People Do” moment in trying to minimalize DD’s points. Black schools, from every research source WE looked at WERE overall offered LESS than the white schools, thus Brown v. Board.

   DD was going to ask today what exactly the teacher’s point was. This is not her regular teacher so I don’t know her well, but she seems to be pretty welcoming to all the kids. It just seemed like the wrong thing to say, ESPECIALLY do a black child who just wrote 4 pages PROVING why black students GENERALLY got short shrift in segregated education.

   I’m too close to this situation, but, are we overreacting or are we guessing correctly that the teacher was out of bounds?
2. dersk says:

   April 23, 2010 at 5:26 am

   I don’t know if I’d say it’s out of bounds, but I think it falls into the swpd category – acknowledging a problem, but trying to soften it somehow. Basically, I think the teacher was at some level trying to make herself feel better. Unfortunately, it’s probably subconscious on the teacher’s part, so it’d be a big challenge to productively call her on it.

   I think this is also a nice opportunity to teach your kid about statistics vs. anecdotes. Knowing the difference is a skill that seems to be vanishing lately, and I think it’s an important one.

   And good job to your daughter!
3. Smithie says:

   April 23, 2010 at 9:52 am

   Well, I’ve logged a few years as a white composition instruction, and I sure as heck think it’s out of bounds! I’ve never hesitated to speak up when I think a student is relying too much on a source of uncertain credibility or distorting the record to shore up their political/ideological point, but… um… yeah. This was not cool.
4. kate says:

   April 23, 2010 at 11:48 am

   Okay – first – it sounds like you have a really awesome kid. Second – no you’re not overreacting! I would question the teacher’s motives in arguing the well-made, supported point, with a little girl. Given what your daughter wrote, I can’t think of any reason besides the desire to defend white folk – and that doesn’t fly. I don’t see the teacher admitting to that on questioning. This may be one of those “pick your battles” battles, but I’d be tempted to have your daughter also ask for supporting evidence of the teacher’s assertion – academically speaking, what’s good for the student should indeed be good for the teacher.
5. Julia says:

   April 23, 2010 at 12:11 pm

   Oh, agibean, I’m sorry. You are definitely not overreacting, and I think that’s extra validated by your daughter’s deflated response.

   Not only is the teacher’s statement out of bounds, but it is arguing an entirely different point. That is: it sounds like your daughter argued about some schools having resources and some not, so whether the schools were bad or good is irrelevant (I mean, sure, I’m sure there were some black schools that managed to be good DESPITE lack of resources, and I’m sure that there were some white schools that managed to fail despite being well resourced, but that’s hardly the point).

   I have a hard time even figuring out what the teacher was trying to say, and in that way it seems particularly crazymaking and unconsciously racist in a way I can’t quite put my finger on. It must be awfully confusing for your daughter.

   I have no idea how I would respond if in your shoes, but offer my support as a sounding board if that is helpful.
6. jm says:

   April 23, 2010 at 12:27 pm

   I find this situation quite disturbing. It’s not clear what the teacher’s motives are, and I think it’s good that your daughter is confident enough to engage her again and ask for clarification, but it sounds to me like no matter what her intent it is misguided at best and her comment was absolutey unwarranted and inappropriate. I do not think you are overreacting at all. I think it’s likely not the case that the teacher is actually an advocate of segregated schools, but it is definitely possible that she might be of the mindset that too big a fuss has been made over the whole thing and/or that the time has come for black people to “get over it,” “put the past behind them,” or “stop blaming history for current problems” – all extremely dangerous attitudes for our children to be exposed to. Even giving her the benefit of the doubt, it might be the case that her comment was meant instead to reflect her genuine concern that your daughter might misunderstand a “bad” black school as somehow attributed to the badness of black people and felt the need to remind her of good black schools as somehow inspirational – again, though, an attitude that is somewhat condescending toward your daughter and also completely misses the point. Also, I’m wondering not only about the comment the teacher made but also about the comment she didn’t make – it sounds to me like she missed out on a very important opportunity to discuss with your daughter (and the other students) how this history of segragation continues to play itself out even today. You mentioned that your daughter is the only black child in her class. The paper she wrote on segragation is not just about history; it speaks to the present as well, and I think a good teacher should be obliged to address these issues with the class, especially when a student of color has written a paper inviting her to do so.
7. E says:

   April 23, 2010 at 1:11 pm

   I think your initial reaction is probably right, though it is possible that the teacher was looking for that point to be stated more clearly, and chose a really bad way to ask for that. I only bring that up because I’ve judged numerous district and state level History Day competitions, and sometimes some points in the papers and exhibits need to be made just a little more clearly for a general audience. However, we chose far more constructive ways to discuss a child’s project! A historian reading your child’s paper probably wouldn’t have thought of making such a comment; but in writing for a general audience, sometimes you have to state the obvious. That’s also true for the exhibits I produce. It can be something as simple as stating, “Although there were black communities with excellent public schools, these were the exception rather than the norm.”
   It sounds like your daughter wrote a terrific paper and the teacher was dense or having a “stuff white people do” moment.
   It sounds like your daughter might enjoy the History Day competitions once she reaches middle school, so please consider it! And please update us on her meeting with the teacher.
8. Amy says:

   April 23, 2010 at 2:34 pm

   I see your point about the teacher and how her comment could be taken the way you interpret it. However, I do think she may have meant well in a strange sort of way, although she is, as you point out, probably wrong for the most part. My thought was that she may have been trying to make DD feel better about being the only person of color in the class by trying to make a point to the rest of the class that just because DD is black, it doesn’t mean people related to her who were in school during segregation were not well educated. If this is what she meant she could have certainly phrased it better – like “some black people were able to obtain a good education during segregation, but look at how much they had to overcome” instead of what she said. Does that make sense?
9. agibean says:

   April 23, 2010 at 4:19 pm

   So DD talked to the teacher. It seems from what she told DD yesterday, that as “jm” suggested, ” it might be the case that her comment was meant instead to reflect her genuine concern that your daughter might misunderstand a “bad” black school as somehow attributed to the badness of black people and felt the need to remind her of good black schools as somehow inspirational “…

   She told DD that she hoped she didn’t think ALL black people had bad experiences in schools (which of course, she KNOWS because she has RELATIVES who WENT to segregated schools as children). DD pointed out that her paper was about the INequality, so she didn’t dwell on the QUALITY schools! I was so proud of her for speaking up! Although, as she told me this, she said, “I had just go ‘ERG!’ in my head a couple of times.”

   This is a very personal subject ot our daughter as she has been harassed more than once by kids in the program because of her race and being the only black kid in her class. The last time it involved a boy who kept insisting she was too stupid to be there at all. We’re actually leaving the program because of this. The administration is doing its best but DD was much happier when she wasn’t the only one basically integrating her class.

   Thanks for all of your validations. Now we’ll decide if we want to say something to the teacher. She’s always seemed to really care for all the kids, and specifically chose this school, which also houses another program that is more diverse. So I am hoping she’s just misguided.
10. Karen L says:

    April 25, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    @agibean, You mentioned SWPD, but were you reading when this post was added? Several of the comments are about by and/or about BW in gifted programs.
11. agibean says:

    April 26, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    Karen L-I usually don’t read all the comments-there are so many! But I read the entire thread you linked and spent the whole time nodding my head, because by age 10, my daughter has already dealt with some of the situations mentioned by some of the women speaking about middle school and up! ARGH!

    I found myself nodding my head all through the thread-from having a teacher tell me DD was wearing “inappropriate” clothing (a skort she thought was too short, although this was NOT in the gifted program) to a parent telling me they could not go to a certain school if the program moved because it would take them “past the most dangerous intersection in the city”, to parents accusing our daughter of lying about racial comments being made to her and on and on…

    The school we’re moving to is a small religious school with children, teachers and administration of many ethnicities. We’ve already been more welcomed than we ever were by the place we’re at now, and we’re just counting the days. But it’s obvious that we’er not going to be able to expect things to be peachy keen from here on-would that we could, right?
12. Julia says:

    April 26, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    agibean,
    This cracked me up: Although, as she told me this, she said, “I had just go ‘ERG!’ in my head a couple of times.”

    I’m impressed that she felt empowered and confident enough to have the conversation with the teacher; I’m also impressed that she has the clearness of head to see that much of the teacher’s response was ERG-worthy.

    A high five to her for being such an awesome kid and a high five to you and your husband for clearly having done some good parenting. I hope the new school works out.
13. Montclair Mommy says:

    April 28, 2010 at 11:20 am

    @agribean: Good luck in your new school–I hope that your daughter and your family feel more welcomed there! That comment would have made me cringe as well. Like, what was her point? I’m glad your daughter had the confidence to respond and to have a talk with the teacher. I hope that was really empowering for her! And I am REALLY glad that she came home and told her parents what her teacher had said that made her feel upset. My DH often was subjected to nasty comments in school and he was so embarrassed by them and worried about his parents’ response that he kept them to himself. That is a HUGE worry for me with our son. I want him to feel like a) its not his fault; b) he can come to us about anything; and c) we will back him up however he wants. It seems like you and your husband have made your daughter feel that way and I think that’s great!
14. Amanda C Whelan says:

    April 29, 2010 at 8:24 am

    That is ridiculous to tell a student, I think it raises a huge red flag. Apart from many things it brings to mind revisionism in racial history.
    “You DO know that some BLACK schools were good and that some WHITE schools were BAD, right?”

    That so reminds me of an editing conflict I had on wikipedia where one editor said it was “racist of me to claim that there was a ‘white press’ during Paul Robeson’s era.HELLO. there still is one!

    The editors response when confronted:
    “I wouldn’t say I need to do much research to tell what is POV and what is not. ‘Standing up for the rights of POC’ is odd language for an encyclopaedia. I think ‘protecting’ would be better language. The black press self-identifies as such, while the mainstream press did not identify as being ‘white’ Therefore I thought that was POV. Generally do not need cites when POV language is obvious. Talking about ‘white America’ failing to stand up for something is POV because it blames white people for certain things–when of course there were tons of white people advocating civil rights and equality, and certain states did ‘stand up’ for the rights of minorities. Generalizing like that is racist and POV. Just because Paul Robeson was a famous civil rights activist does not mean this article has to adopt the language of civil rights activism.”

    “-when of course there were tons of white people advocating civil rights and equality, and certain states did ‘stand up’ for the rights of minorities.”

    Same thing as the “bad schools for whites” etc
    A land of history better suited to pulp fiction. Glad your little one sees right through.