Open thread

28 Responses to Open thread

1. Montclair Mommy says:

   May 7, 2010 at 9:35 am

   I have to say that I feel like this site has been really slow lately. Its no offensive to any of the writers or the founders…I know you have other jobs…but I’m not seeing many real discussions lately. I miss antiracistparent.
2. jm says:

   May 7, 2010 at 11:02 am

   She doesn’t have a tan; she’s BLACK! I just needed to get that off my chest, because if one more person comments to me that my beautiful biracial daughter has “the perfect tan” I’m going to throw a fit. Yes, she does have an absolutely gorgeous complexion and no, your skin [ignorant, even if well-meaning white person] will never look like hers no matter how many hours you spend damaging yourself by laying in the sun. But my real problem with this comment is not just the fact that it’s, for lack of a better word, stupid, but that underneath the stupidity it’s actually an attempt to fit my daughter into a mold that she does not fit. It’s an attempt to take what she is, at a most fundamental level, and bend it to fit it into something you understand (light brown skin = “tan”) rather than bend yourself for just the iota of a second that it takes to acknowledge someone else’s child and realize that she is different than you . . . and still, yes, she is beautiful.
3. EL says:

   May 7, 2010 at 6:08 pm

   JM,
   I agree people have an overwhelming need to put your daughter into a box and even there well meaning remarks can cause you some pain. However, my question is, aren’t you putting her into a box by saying, “she’s BLACK”? Are you applying the “one drop” rule and putting her into your own box?
4. Kristen says:

   May 8, 2010 at 1:57 am

   I have been pondering where we live, as a transracial family. Jae Ran and John Raible have both written influential posts on the importance of transracial families living in a diverse place. We are struggling with figuring out what that means for us. We certainly live in a racially diverse area – our local school where my son will attend is 75% Latino, and our community has a high number of Asian and Persian immigrants. Our own neighborhood is very diverse. But my kids are black, and it still feels like they are always in the minority. It’s not that we don’t see black people in our daily lives. We certainly do. There is enough diversity that there are a number of black churches, salons, etc. But if you look at a classroom ratio, it’s likely that they will be the only black child in the class, which concerns me.

   We’ve been trying to figure out if this level of nonspecific diversity is enough, or if we need to move to somewhere where there is more African American diversity specifically. And as we start casting our attention on different cities, I’ve also noticed that most places that have a higher ratio of African Americans also tend to be cities where I would be concerned that there is a lot of racism. We want to stay in a warmer climate . . . so we could move to certain cities in “the south”, but then I worry about the long-held racial attitudes that I imagine are being passed down. While our certain location has its issues, it is definitely a place where over racism would be considered taboo. (Now covert racism, that’s another story).

   Anyways, just wanted to throw that out there for feedback. It would be really hard to move as all of our family is here in Southern California, but we feel like we need to put it on the table. I’d love to hear where other people live, and ideas for warmer cities that could be a good option for our family. Would also love opinions on whether or not you think a racially diverse city is “good enough”, or if the diversity is a moot point if our child’s specific race is not reflected.
5. S's mom says:

   May 8, 2010 at 5:23 am

   I’m curious what everyone thinks about Lisa See. He great grandfather was Chinese, so she is one-eighth Chinese. (And otherwise I believe she is white?)
   From her blog: “I’m part Chinese and grew up spending a lot of time with my grandparents, aunts, and uncles in Los Angeles Chinatown. I’ve often said that I may not look Chinese (although when people see me with my family they say that the resemblance is quite striking) but that I’m Chinese in my heart. ”

   I am wondering when one stops being “Chinese” or of of color. I guess this is more of a topic for Racalicious, but they don’t have an open thread.

   Her blog: http://www.lisasee.com/onwriting.htm
   (The quote comes from the middle.)
6. lena says:

   May 8, 2010 at 11:25 am

   I haven’t been at this site for a while, but the previous open thread had a question about including the “n word” in a historical document…

   I am finding that my (biracial) teens & their friends of various races think this word is okay to use with one other. It is very common in the music they listen to (hip hop & related genres), & they say it to one another in a joking/friendly way. They don’t use that language anymore (in front of me), but I am not sure they understand why I find it extremely, extremely offensive. (Also, the words “bitch” & “ho’,” are pretty commonplace, & used by both genders without batting an eye, but that is another topic…)

   I am wondering, what do other parents think of teens using this language & how do you handle it? Thanks!
7. Andrea says:

   May 9, 2010 at 1:54 pm

   I don’t think anyone has a right to tell Lisa See she is NOT Chinese or that she should not identiy as such. She has Chinese ancestry and apparently has spent some time with Chinese relatives. It’s as much a part of her cultural heritage as anything else. I doubt I’d look at her on the street and say “She’s Chinese” but so what? I’d look at it the same way I look at my periodic celebration of my Finnish or Norwegian or Swedish ancestry at the annual Scandinavian American festival or the way I wear green on St. Patrick’s Day in honor of my 25 percent Irish ancestry and my mother used to call my eyes Irish blue. It’s all part of me. Why can’t she say she’s Chinese the same way? A couple of weeks ago I saw blond, blue-eyed kids dressed up in jingle dresses and feathers at the local university’s spring pow wow, holding the hands of Indian aunts or grandmothers. Those kids are probably about 1/8 American Indian by blood and wouldn’t qualify for tribal membership under some of the tribal laws, but they’re still being raised in the culture. At a guess, some of those kids could easily be dressed up in bunads at the Scandinavian festival since they’re probably also Norwegian-American. It’s all part of who they are and I wouldn’t presume to say I have a right to demand they deny any part of their heritage or emphasize any one part of it. Maybe some will be more interested in being Indian and others in being Norwegian and some in none of it. What See or others call themselves is pretty much up to them, as far as I’m concerned.
8. Julia says:

   May 9, 2010 at 3:18 pm

   @Kristen,
   You might find this helpful, at least in framing how you approach the question: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1365/is_12_31/ai_75754162/

   I think there may have been other “best” lists; you might google around a bit…
9. Ann says:

   May 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm

   S’s mom, isn’t she the woman who put together the cultural center at the Gene Autry museum on Chinese history in California?

   I do know know that for Native American’s anything less than 1/4 is not counted for grants, etc.

   However, I don’t think you can go strictly on looks either. I have an African American friend whose biracial daughter does not look black AT ALL. So much so that she is constantly being asked by strangers and even school officials for adoption details and records.
10. lena says:

    May 9, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    S’s Mom: That is an interesting article by Lisa See–now I would love to read her book!

    Just recently we printed out “The Bill of Rights for People of Mixed Heritage” for our family, & my teens really identified with it (it can be found by googling it, or here is one website that has it: http://www.literanista.net/2009/10/bill-of-rights-for-people-of-mixed.html).

    That seems to gives a good guideline, giving each person the right to define themselves, even if it differs from others within a family. Sometimes whatever genes are expressed influence how others see us, or one particular relative or cultural experience can influence us in a way that is different from our siblings–a person can really be ethnically/culturally/racially unique, even within their own family.

    That Bill of Rights has really helped clarify things for us, a family with several generations of mixed heritages. We just kind of sighed a collective sigh of relief…like, “Oh, so that’s who we are…”

    It sounds like Lisa See has had a lot of exposure to the Chinese part of her family, & that aspect of her heritage seems to strongly resonate within her & shaped who she is.
11. lena says:

    May 9, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    Sorry, for some reason the link I posted does not seem to be working, but here is another link that may work (Dr. Maria Root is the author of that bill of rights):

    http://www.drmariaroot.com/doc/BillOfRights.pdf
12. Moth says:

    May 9, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    @S’s mom – one doesn’t stop being “of color” unless one buys into the racist “blood quantum” pseudo-science created by the (white) U.S. government to HARM people of color. The book Hawaiian by Blood talks about the history of blood quantum fiction, and for more information check out Cherokee scholar Eva Marie Garoutte.
13. Montclair Mommy says:

    May 10, 2010 at 9:38 am

    @Kristen: I would definitely consider moving…even if its just to another part of Southern California with more AA families and interracial families. In my experience, I have found areas near military bases are especially diverse in terms of multiracial families. I am not black, so I can never know from first hand experience, but I have found that all diversity is NOT created equal. This is terrible, but I have to say that my husband faced a lot of racism coming from other minorities that were not AA. The most negative experiences that I have had with my son so far (and I can’t call them “racist” experiences, per se, b/c these were children and who knows why they chose my son to pick on…but still) were with other minority children (not black). I definitely don’t think that you can assume that non-AA minority environments are going to be friendly to AA children. Kids know when they are different and the other kids pick up on it, too. Just my two cents.

    You might also want to look up the best cities for interracial/multiracial families. Plug for Northern Jersey! I know its not warm, but in Northern Jersey there are several nice towns that are very diverse in population and with lots of same race and multiracial families. Maplewood, Montclair, Union, South Orange, West Orange–all amazing places. Columbia, MD also has a great reputation for being multiracial and integrated…but in my experience it is not the same as N NJ. Julia’s list might be a good starting place for you, but I would try to network and talk to other families there to get a feel for whether you would be happy there. I feel like for a family with multiple races, you need to find a place that is as integrated as possible so that your children can see families and friendship groups that reflect their family values.
14. Montclair Mommy says:

    May 10, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    Just to clarify above, the “negative experiences” I had with my son involved children at the playground singling him out, following him around and poking at him (until I told them to stop), keeping him from going on playground equipment and blocking him from the slide (until I intervened), taking his sand toys (again, I intervened), and making mean faces (glaring, sticking out their tongue, pointing at him while talking with other children) at him. Keep in mind, he was only about 18 months at the time and the only black child at the playground. This happened at that playground several times and at another playground one time. Needless to say, I don’t go to those playgrounds anymore. After the first time, I did think that those things were happening because my child is black. Just a hunch, no proof though.
15. Moth says:

    May 10, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    @ Ann, this “I do know know that for Native American’s anything less than 1/4 is not counted for grants, etc.” is not quite correct. Each tribal nation determines its own citizenship and some nations such as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma don’t care how “little” Cherokee you are as long as you can trace an ancestor back to the Dawes Rolls.
16. Rita says:

    May 10, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Woo-hoo! In Julia’s link, my hometown made #1 as the best city for African-Americans! Go, Houston! I was really hoping it would make the list, but I sure wasn’t expecting #1. I’m hoping to move back there, myself – in no small part because of my biracial son.

    Sorry, I just had to brag there.
17. Moth says:

    May 10, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    From: http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/05/insist-on-racially-categorizing-mixed.html

    I’m black. I never thought of it as a choice, to choose to be either white or black, despite being mixed with both. I knew that “mixed” wasn’t working for me, and I just felt black. I thought that once I started fully considering myself black, and telling people who asked that I was black, this whole “What are you?” problem would be solved forever. However, that simply raised another, more offensive question:

    “Really?”

    And the occasional, “You don’t LOOK black…”

    I know without a doubt that never has a white person accepted that I’m black when I tell them. I know that it always requires explaining, and that it’s always slightly awkward thereafter, as every time I’m asked and misunderstood, it’s another wedge between me and any white person I try to befriend.
18. Ann says:

    May 10, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    Moth, thanks for the clarification.
19. Anthony says:

    May 10, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    This has been bothering me. Has anyone else noticed in the celebrity magazines that some of us parents like to kick back and read for mindless fun when we have two spare minutes to breath, that when they judge the bad celebrity outfit in the fashion section, that the comments about what the black and non-white celebs are wearing is often very subtly racist? Just curious if anyone else picked up on this. Thanks!
20. E says:

    May 11, 2010 at 9:24 am

    @Moth
    Random people ask “What are you?” ?!?!?!?!?
    I”m white and it’s never even crossed my mind to ask such a thing of anyone! It’s unbelievably RUDE and STUPID and why on earth would it matter?????? Why would they care? You know, the more I read on this site the more I 1) am amazed by absolute idiocy of some people and 2) appreciate the efforts of my parents and grandparents to raise me with empathy and respect for ALL people, and 3) how unusual their attitudes were. And I think I have been naive in many respects regarding this kind of behavior.
21. Lyonside says:

    May 11, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    It’s been an interesting racial week for me.

    1) Finally spent a few days in classrooms without anyone asking what I was. I guess either they remember me as a sub or they’re bored w/ my answers by now.

    2) I’m looking forward to a summer bonding with new neighbors with a daughter my daughter’s age… who’s also tall and precocious, and who used to be in the same daycare (for like a week before we had to switch ours). So in the course of getting to know A’s mom while the kids run around the yard, I find out in the same conversation that she’s 1) queer and 2) biracial (one black grandparent, 3 white grandparents), and I want to do a happy dance because HEY! TWIN! (sort of – but still…). I mention both IDs because I had no problems owning up to the multiracial identities of myself and my daughter (and spouse too, as he’s finally acknowleged) to A’s mom. But there was no way to just slip into conversation that yeah, I’m het-married but Louis could just as well have been a Loiusa in my book. It’s not vitally important that A’s moms see me as more than an Ally, because since my family ISN’T of the same makeup, I am an Ally – to families like hers. But it’s like… like I’m not telling all of who I am – feels like a sin of omission…. but at the same time, I really don’t want to make it a bigger deal than it is. I don’t have this problem talking about race – maybe because it’s an obvious visible (if indeterminate) trait for me personally, rather than an invisible one.

    3) and then this morning, the kidlet and I are discussing families, and I’m trying to tell her that her grandmom and granddad are MY mom and dad, etc…. and she said that Miss Victoria (her main teacher) was my sister. Wha…..? I told kidlet she wasn’t my sister, just a friend. When asked why she thought Victoria was my sister, kidlet said, “She’s brown.” [Miss Victoria is African-American, with medium brown skin tones]. I asked if she thought that because Mommy and Victoria were both brown, and the kidlet agreed. I asked if she was brown too, but nope… kidlet is not considering herself a color yet.

    And so it begins. I don’t think this is coming from anyone at the new day care or from the kids, since they’re all the same age. Unlike when I was three and the Grand Inquisitors were the kindergarden-age kids.

    But the kidlet is noticing differences and categorizing, so I have to acknowlege that and work with it.

    Of course it comes in fits and starts. When I mentioned to her that her friend A has two mommies, the kidlet replied, “And also, two Barbies!”

    So there’s her priorities right there…
22. Bob says:

    May 11, 2010 at 7:27 pm

    Montclair Mommy I think you are right in your gut feeling. Its no reason for kids to pick on a baby a playground! 18 months! Would they have done it to a baby 18 months of the same race as they ? Thats how you know what the answer is.
23. Kristen says:

    May 12, 2010 at 3:43 am

    So, Texas, huh? I would not have expected that. We do have a lot of friends in Austin . . .
24. Moth says:

    May 12, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    @E – Actually, those are quotes from the link I posted : ) although I definitely appreciate the righteous indignation. Incidentally, people do ask me what I am – but not as frequently as with the woman whose quotes I used. I posted that link to Stuff White People Do in response to the person who asked if Lisa See was really Chinese.
25. Montclair Mommy says:

    May 13, 2010 at 10:31 am

    @Lyonside: I think as you get to know your new neighbor it will ‘come out’ that you consider yourself to be more than just an Ally. That’s something that you can reveal when you feel like its a good time, IMHO I don’t think she’ll be upset that you are hiding it from her. I bet she’d understand that it will just come out naturally in conversation when its the right time. It sounds like this could be an awesome new friendship for you and your daughter!

    Re: your daughter saying you and her teacher are sisters…that’s interesting! Kids see things so differently! I noticed that my son is really picking up on people’s colors lately because we have been reading this book that he’s into right now: Shades of People. Yesterday, I was reading him the book and he said “Quincy” to a picture of a young AA boy. Quincy is the name of the other AA boy in his class. I said, “Hmm. That’s not Quincy, but why did you think it was Quincy?” He said, I kid you not (the child is TWO), “He is brown. Quincy is brown.” I thought: Oh my G-d, already! He is already noticing! Take a deep breath. I responded, “Yes, Quincy is brown! He has beautiful brown skin like lots of boys and girls and adults. Who else has beautiful brown skin? What color is your skin?” He looked at his hand and said, “Brown!” And I told him, “GOOD! It is brown! What color is Mommy’s skin?” Him, “Yellow.” [really?] “Okaay. Sure! Everyone has different colors of skin, they are all beautiful, especially brown.” Is that last part wrong to say? I couldn’t help it. Anyway, later on the book he did the same thing, ie: called children in the book by the names of children that are in his class that look similar. He’s starting to notice…so soon.
26. Moth says:

    May 15, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    @Montclair Mommy – no that last part isn’t wrong to say : ) You’re supposed to let your child know he’s especially special – particularly if the world is not necessarily going to affirm them.
27. Bob says:

    May 18, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    I feel like I am missing the secret password.

    What does CIS mean?
28. Lyonside says:

    May 19, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    Bob – where was CIS used? If it’s a prefix, as in cis-gendered, it means someone whose assigned/social/biological gender/sex matches their personal identity. Cis as opposed to trans.